well, i do experience my emotions, i'm not a robot...

anyway, did you watch that mental health through mindfulness lecture i posted above? it was really interesting, actually! well, i really haven't read much about mindfulness, but it amazed me how much of the things said on that video, and by Javizy etc are the exact same ways i've come to view & do things over the past few years on my own.

The mindfulness as in the part where he talks about like, eating a raisin with mindfulness, man, i remember when the medication had kicked in & i'd come through the numb stage, and EVERYTHING was like that. It was great!! i was really like a child again, experiencing everything. I guess that's just through the contrast of what things were like before. And the other thing, like just being aware that what you're feeling is just a feeling, i learnt through various stressful situations afterwards. well, i guess i'm just repeating my post from before.

Anyway, i guess what i'm trying to say is, you don't have to learn those things when your depressed. You can use medication to get you to the point where you're not depressed and still learn them. One way is harder than the other, i expect, but either way, you learn the same thing and have the same tool there ready to use another time.

anyway, i'd certainly recommend it to Raschaverak if that's what it's about!! Going by that lecture, it seems like that really could fix many of his problems.

... on the other hand, i really get the feeling that when i talk about depression, and you and some others talk about depression, we're talking about two quite different things. It seems like for many people, these negative emotions and thoughts are all depression is. For me, an acute stressor could cause those feelings & thoughts if i was already depressed, but they aren't what the more central symptoms were for me in the first place. And those central symptoms, unlike acute stressors, i haven't ever felt since the medication kicked in. Those are also the symptoms i would be worried about returning if i did come off medication. so i'm happy to stick with it for now.

There is one way the psychiatrists could prove to me they are legitimate healers:
In order to get their license, they have to pass that MRI scan the monks took and prove they are happy.
You do not take nutrition advice from someone clinically obese.
You do not hire a personal workout trainer who is thin and weak.
Why would you take advice from someone on happiness if they are not themselves happier than the general population? From the small sampling I have befriended, they seem far more miserable.

but most psychiatrists aren't on medication either, so it's not really a fair game...

i don't think it really matters who else is happy or not, as long as whatever you do makes you happy (as long as it doesn't make others unhappy of course). you can follow someone else or take bits and pieces from lots of different people, or just find your own way, whatever suits you. i like taking bits and pieces from lots of different people. i don't think there's only one way to be happy, and lots of different people have valuable things you can learn.

Maybe there's no single one of those people who's happier than your teacher, but put together all of those bits from different people, and you might find something even better... you never know...

I think it is a fair requirement, because their job is to help make people happier.

I know a lot of people in Hawaii defend LSD just as passionately, and it does have the effect of making them happier while they are on it, and they even claim a sort of enlightenment. Over the years I known them, I have seen no personal growth in them as far as control over their emotions or a sense of well-being goes.

I kind of see life as a peeling away of addictions, and with each comes more confidence that happiness is not dependent on anything external. As I said earlier with meditation. there is an initial increase in suffering, but that is common when detoxing from anything.

well, tbh i've never seen that kind of psychiatrist. i only see my GP. it's their job to make people healthier, not happier as such.

anyway, i'm pretty sure that if you had known me 3 years ago, you wouldn't be likening me to those people on LSD that you know.

antidepressants don't make you high in any sense. They just make you able to live like a normal person. It's bringing you up to what's normal for most people, not trying to give you some special state... the rest is up to you, like it is for any other person in the world.

I might be crazy but I suffered from pretty bad depression the last 2-3 years ( as in I've had suicidal thoughts everyday). But, in recent times, I've found my own ways of fighting it, and honestly, I can say that almost everyday I'm alive now, I feel pretty happy & good about myself & life in general (and trust me, I live far from an "optimal" life). I've never seen a doctor for it, I've never taken meds for it & I never would. In my opinion, depression is a battle against yourself. No one or nothing can beat it except for you. Sure, meds might give you a temporary respite, but it's a band-aid fix to the problem in my opinion. Find something that makes you happy & do it. Find someone you enjoy spending time with & spend time with them. For starters, if you're depressed, don't read this thread, it'll probably only make you feel worse. It makes me feel crappy just reading about other people's depression. I might only be a naive 23 year old, but that's what I think. Hmm, maybe I'm crazy but it works for me. Happiness - it's simple

well, i give up. i guess most people's minds are pretty set on this. After all, it's common knowledge that antidepressants don't work, eh...

well, you guys can carry on battling yourselves or whatever, & i'll just carry on takin it easy, being happy, and learning as i go.

i'm not gonna read these types of threads anymore though, because it's hard to see so many people struggling with something they probably never needed to in the first place, and so many others encouraging them to continue.

If (severe) depression is caused by chemical imbalance in the brain, or it causes chemical imbalance, then wouldn't it be simple to decide if somebody needs medcation or not, by having an MRI scan (or something similar). Then it would be apparent if there really is any chemical problems going on, and if there is, how bad it is. Or is it not that simple.... Of course deciding the exact borderline from which the imbalance needs medication to be returned to normal, is another question, and other personal factors must be taken into consideration as well...but still could it be a good starting point?

Ice Cream,
You have a chemical dependency on the drugs, so the control they have on you may not allow you to see the logic in the anti-medication viewpoint. I hope you can get off them on your own before circumstances in this ever-changing world force you to. It is best to take on the underlying causes of depression while you are young and still strong.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Ice Cream,
You have a chemical dependency on the drugs, so the control they have on you may not allow you to see the logic in the anti-medication viewpoint. I hope you can get off them on your own before circumstances in this ever-changing world force you to. It is best to take on the underlying causes of depression while you are young and still strong.

Medication is not the problem per-say. The problem is if one doctor prescribes you this, after hearing your problem, but without further investigation of the cause, and the next doctor adds to it with another set of drugs. A good doctor is looking for the cause, for a combination of pills that has no ill side-effects, but only if the indication is given to prescribe the medicine in the first place.

Of course i have my experience with doctors who listen, but instead of offering a solution, they give you pills. The next time i came to this doctor, and i told him again what my problems are and the medication has no effect, he gave me more pills. Which i refused to take.

But there is need for taking medicine sometimes, and you can't say everything can be solved by either meditation or taking pills. This is potentially dangerous, internet or not, nobody can say what the original poster - or any person at all - does or does not need.

IceCream, are you still taking your medication?
It seems to me, if you've beaten your depression, you should no longer need them. If you still need them, then are you really healed? It seems rather defeatist to me to just accept that you need medication to be happy in life, when most people (and the rest of the animal kingdom) get by fine without them. They can enjoy the happy times and somehow manage to deal with the hard times without slipping into depressive episodes. You really need to ask yourself why? What mechanisms do happy people have in place that allow them to deal with stress and hard times? If you want to be happy, examine how happy people live their lives. I well understand that long-term unhappiness will effect the brain and can lead to habitual and irrational negative thinking, but this can all be reversed. It just takes time and awareness. If quitting your medication leads to feeling awful then I'd say there's still some unresolved issues you're not aware of yet.
It all seems rather similar to people with body weight issues. There are plenty of people out there convinced that they need to be be constantly dieting, doing long workouts etc to lose weight but the fact is the majority of thin people don't need to do any of these things to stay in shape. And it has almost nothing to do with genetics. It's all about habits. Crash dieting may achieve short term results but never works in the longterm if one isn't mindful of how they live and the effects of negative habits.

Sure if someone is getting suicidal maybe some temporary medication is in order. But in the long-run it's better to help someone get their life back on track by being a good friend and role-model. Artificial medication-induced happiness may feel as good as the real thing, but if it prevents you discovering and dealing with the real (and often completely legitimate) causes of your ills, you're ultimately not doing yourself any favours. Physical and mental pain exist because they serve a useful evolutionary function. They inform you that something is wrong.

Well. I was at one time severely depressed in a suicidal way. And I cured myself of my own depression. Went to the doctor and that didn't do much...in the end it was lifestyle choices. In fact, I would say that depression is a signals that something is wrong.

People say the following stuff constantly, but it works: exercise of all sorts; spending time outside; vitamin d and omega 3 supplements; always having something to keep your mind busy, be it people or some activity -- depression can come when you are alone with your thoughts; not ruminating; having a decent social life; having goals. You have to feel it out personally.

And as far as "introversion and extroversion" go, I once read something about the brain's ability to stimulate itself. Still...this could be bullsh*t because I have no way of citing a source. Extroverted people have brains that are under stimulated and so seek stimulation constantly in the form of social contact. Introverted people have brains that are very good at stimulating themselves; this could be why many introverted people feel overwhelmed when they are in social situations for lengthy periods. I don't think introversion or extroversion is set in stone though.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I know a lot of people in Hawaii defend LSD just as passionately, and it does have the effect of making them happier while they are on it, and they even claim a sort of enlightenment. Over the years I known them, I have seen no personal growth in them as far as control over their emotions or a sense of well-being goes.

I believe that the full benefits and potential of LSD will be revealed only to highly intelligent people with a growth mindset. In other words the benefits increase as a side-effect of a certain person's increasing spectrum of knowledge/intelligence.

FE: You just can't give LSD to a random bum and expect for that bum to become permanently happy or more in control of her/his emotions permanently. That bum probably never accomplished anything worthy enough during his whole life and is used to not giving his best and you can't hope that his behavior/way of acting & thinking will change dramatically anyway. A person who has a mindset of personal growth will grow personally anyway. It's not like LSD ruins already intelligent or growth seeking people or anything.

"No personal growth in them as far as control over their emotions "
Is control over one's emotions a part of personal growth?....:/

Controlling positive emotions: It's too much like being a robot with no emotions, or controlled emotions. I don't see any benefit in it unless you're trying to lie, deceive or trick people into believing into something that is not true.

Controlling negative emotions: A person should go to an environment where he/she is the most satisfied with life and doesn't have to control one's emotions. After that if that person feels that he/she still has negative emotions, that person has to just stand up and find one's problems and also solve them, but not bother one's head with controlling one's emotions which would be a kinda alternative way of lying without trying to solve the problem.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I know a lot of people in Hawaii defend LSD just as passionately

Note that all drugs are not the same. In fact they're as different as anything in the world can be.

And of course, nor are all people the same.
No matter what media or monks or news or authorities or FDA might tell to people, I repeat it, all drugs are very different. And just the fact that something is in a form of a chemical substance or medication doesn't make it any less of a probable aid in curing depression and the like! It might work, might not.

But I think that people should try different ways and find the suitable ones. Or, what is better, apply all kinds of different methods at once (with caution of course). Every applied method might add a small grain of rice to help cure depression and if you add those grains and collect them, you will already get a rice meal!

Ps, Bodhisamaya, you are addicted and attached to this forum and it's totally chill and isn't essentially a bad thing at all imo!

Addiction is obviously everywhere in nature, is an essential function, and it causes various reactions in plants. The so said addiction to H20 makes some plants turn their leaves yellow as they can't satisfy their addiction to H20. Addiction to light makes plants turn their leaves in the direction of the sun. Animals? Look at how addicted they are to everything. FE look at cats, they are addicted to being stroked totally naturally

Well nature gave birth to humans and thus humans are part of nature. I don't believe that a human or even an enlightened person isn't part of the laws of nature and thus, addiction is a very important function for humans as well!

Consciously getting rid of negative addictions that you have found that are negative for yourself through your baggage of personal direct experiences which are not based on other people or what they tell you, is only intelligent in my opinion, and is the way to go!

Well, it's just my opinion...

Since I think depression is the product of the human itself and perhaps his/her environment, I do believe humans can heal themselves from depression not originating from insufficient chemicals in their organism. (I'm not a biochemist or psychologist, just.. getting through the 'facts' or 'thesis' you posted above, guys.)

@bodhisamaya: I have seen a documentary on buddhism and had read through some interesting books at the library afterwards, since I always take such interviews and tellings with a grain of salt (bias, etc.). After all it was a rather informative and as I profed to myself an deeply honest documentation, hiding nothing and making nothing entirely up. What I wanted to ask you, the 'Buddhist' in this forum, if I may call you like that (i hope i did not misunderstand something!!), how do you meditate? My grandfather could cure his shot knee suffering from pain by exercising Yoga a 'guru', how he calls him, taught him in the north caucasus (don't ask me how my grandfather got there. Anyway~).
I'd like to know your strategy, how to meditate, since my grandfather is living far away and has no option telling me and I do not have an idea how to develop myself any further; concerning my mind, my personality and character. I feel insecure due many factors, like strict family rules and laws and a very conservative and stereotype-providing soviet-education. (vonPeterhof, can you tell me something about that? I read once you just feel hatred against Russia today. Can you specify why?)

I must say that Buddhism in its basic ideology, concerning truth, awakening and epiphany about the "why?" question of the whole world appeals me as a philosophy becoming a better, non egoist human being, although I'm a rock-hard atheist and can't deal with religious words like 'god', 'heaven' and 'paradise'. I do however not believe in reincarnation, but in the total 'nothingness' after I die. I just wonder~

IceCream Wrote:... so, you want to discredit all academic papers as ghostwritten fiction, and then post random articles from the internet written by well, who knows really, there's no credentials at all there, as evidence that antidepressants are simply placebos...? Even those articles you posted don't claim that.

it seems like your world view is challenged by the idea that anti-depressants could actually be helpful for some reason. i don't really understand why...

I'm sure Bodhi doesn't think ALL academic papers are ghostwritten with bribes as you boldly claim. But we are aware that it happens and people are being naive if they don't think it is a regular occurrence to put a spin favorably towards drugs.

I need to read those articles and will have more to say later...i don't buy into credentials as much as intent, but credentials do play a positive role. Also forgot that true yogis probably don't need/or wont have credentials, so as long as they're truly happy.

If I extrapolate what Bodhi said about psychiatrists to doctors, all doctors should pass a test that they are healthy before they can tell others to be healthy! lol, so many would fail

I don't know about your friends bodhi, but I think any psychedelic drug helps to overcome fear in a general way, especially once you've had a badtrip. It's not that much in terms of personal growth, but it's a start.

Plus I think the part about controlling one's emotions is about not showing them and/or not getting overwhelmed by them. Doesn't mean you don't feel them. I mean, I know some people who are easily overwhelmed by their emotions (fear, love, anger), and in any case, when they don't show selfcontrol, they start acting like maniacs. To some people, emotions are regressive, therefore they need to control them.

To meditate, you just have to pay attention to the present, and not attach yourself to your thoughts (correct me if I'm wrong bodhi). They rise, you don't react, they float away. Try to focus on your breathing. I think one should focus without words; words just drive me away from focus. There are all the essays by D.T. Suzuki you could read Tori-kun (Zen Buddhism), but I don't know what bodhi would say about them.

Tori-kun Wrote:I feel insecure due many factors, like strict family rules and laws and a very conservative and stereotype-providing soviet-education. (vonPeterhof, can you tell me something about that? I read once you just feel hatred against Russia today. Can you specify why?)

It's quite off-topic, but if you insist

Last year I probably would have answered something like this: "Half the time I am bothered by the fact that my country is ruled by a clique of elitist self-serving kleptocrats who think that the Russian people are mostly drunken bigoted brutes who are not ready for freedom and/or democracy. The other half of the time I find myself somewhat agreeing with the kleptocrats' opinion about the Russian people". Among other things that bother me about Russian culture is our proud anti-rationalism, combined with exceptionalism bordering on the extreme. I am sure that you have heard this 19th century poem:

Афанасий Фет Wrote:Умом Россию не понять,
Аршином общим не измерить:
У ней особенная стать -
В Россию можно только верить.

Here is the proper 21st century response:

Игорь Губерман Wrote:Давно пора, ебёна мать,
Умом Россию понимать!

Anyway, I mentioned last year because I was struggling with my own severe depression a little more than a year ago. These days I am not really bothered that much. Not that anything changed dramatically, it's just that I stopped taking it all close to heart. It also helps that my own family isn't exactly representative of the whole authoritarian culture. I was lucky enough to have been born into a relatively liberal family, part of a close-knit and very supportive Koryo-saram clan. And discovering a hobby I can be passionate about (languages and linguistics) helped me take my mind off the negative thoughts. I guess my cultural cringe is still there, but it doesn't define my life in Russia any more.

Edit: Ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob ich Ihre Frage beantwortet habe...

jettyke Wrote:"No personal growth in them as far as control over their emotions "
Is control over one's emotions a part of personal growth?....:/

My wish is to experience emotions fully, yet not judge them as good or bad. Anger is a very powerful emotion and very helpful if properly channeled. An overpowering strength comes from it and so can be used to accomplish both positive and harmful things.

@Tori-kun
My current meditation is of taking refuge/prostrations. It is kind of basic as my teacher claims I am still low level after all these years . There is an elaborate visualization involved though as I try to imagine as beautiful an environment around me as I can (with eyes open). All teachers who are helping me on my path sit in a glistening fruit tree in front of me. All sentient beings in the universe are all around me also doing prostrations. Those who wish to harm me I place closest to the tree as I want them to receive the most benefit from the practice. Family and friends I place close to me because that will arouse compassion in me. As I rise from each prostration, I imagine that I am pulling beings up from the hell (dark emotion) realms. With each prostration I make a vow never to abandon suffering beings until they reach nirvana no matter how many lifetimes it takes with my teachers in front of me as a witness. At the end of this, I imagine that everything in this visualization turns into a small ball of light and enters my heart along with all matter in the universe. Then my own body also collapses into that ball of light growing smaller and smaller until it disappears. Then I stay in that state for maybe 5 minutes.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Ice Cream,
You have a chemical dependency on the drugs, so the control they have on you may not allow you to see the logic in the anti-medication viewpoint. I hope you can get off them on your own before circumstances in this ever-changing world force you to. It is best to take on the underlying causes of depression while you are young and still strong.

This sounds kinda......... :/

I'm not on any meds and I can see the logic on both sides.

Re: How to meditate, I've heard good things about this book, Mindfulness In Plain English, it seems very practical which I like:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...velogic-20

You can get it free here:
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html

Can't really comment on the effectiveness as I've only tried once and managed 11 mins :$ Gonna do some more this weekend.

For the record, I think it's been sufficiently proven that drugs can be effective at treating serious depression long term. And I also think that meditation, when talked about in a medical context, is bullshit that has only become popular in the western world by riding on the wave of new age charlatan crap.

Though, I don't want to put down meditation in other contexts.

I wouldn't say this except that this thread has been so one-sidedly against medication, with the exception of IceCream. I tried to bait bodhisamaya into thinking seriously about the epistemological difficulties of this debate, but he didn't really seem to get what I was asking (perhaps I just didn't phrase it well), so I'm just gonna drop my hopes of defending my position.

Also, that scientology documentary is awful.

How is something that has been around for thousands of years and recommended by millions for mental well-being "New Age", especially when pharmaceuticals is the new flavor of the month for psychiatry? If a person is seriously mentally ill to the point they are more animal than human, then medicating the harmful emotions away might be a positive. If they have enough awareness that they know they do not want to be in that state, there are more effective and proven methods for long-term improvement.

bodhisamaya Wrote:If a person is seriously mentally ill to the point they are more animal than human, then medicating the harmful emotions away might be a positive. If they have enough awareness that they know they do not want to be in that state, there are more effective and proven methods for long-term improvement.

What about people in the middle?

bodhisamaya Wrote:How is something that has been around for thousands of years and recommended by millions for mental well-being "New Age", especially when pharmaceuticals is the new flavor of the month for psychiatry? If a person is seriously mentally ill to the point they are more animal than human, then medicating the harmful emotions away might be a positive. If they have enough awareness that they know they do not want to be in that state, there are more effective and proven methods for long-term improvement.

Meditation has been used in a lot of different contexts--I'm really talking about the meditation that has come out of Hinduism and Buddhism. Of the two, I'm far more familiar with Buddhist meditation. Buddhist meditation is done in the larger context of a set of religious beliefs and traditions, which have nothing really to do with curing the type of the depression we're talking about here. It has to do with releaving suffering in a wider context, not with curing clinical depression.

Hindu meditation, on the other hand, seems to have more to do with seeing one's true self (atman)

In the context of Buddhists beliefs about the nature of suffering, as well as Buddhist ceremony, meditation makes sense. But the use of meditation in a western context falls under the 'OMG, foreign shit is magic' category (http://www.cracked.com/article_18821_5-e...magic.html). Foreign-shit-is-magic is a very common theme in the new age movement, which uses foreign practices in new contexts. Note that 'new age' really refers to the shift from the Age of Pisces to the Age of Aquarius--many of the traditions within the new age movement are quite old.

(I'm not saying that when you meditate you're doing it outside of a tradition. I don't know you. Rather, I'm saying that you're recommending someone else to meditate outside of a tradition, and probably in a completely useless way)

I believe that there are NOT more effective and proven methods for the long-term improvemet of depression. The fact that certain 'methods' have been around for thousands of years means nothing to me. People are stupid and go on believing stupid stuff for as long as possible.

Dara O'Briain does a bit where he talks about Chinese medicine. He quips that others defend it, saying "But Chinese medicine has been around for thousands of years! There must be something good about it." He replies "Yeah, and life expectancy in China one hundred years ago was thirty. Now it's seventy six. I don't think it was tiger penis that made the difference--it didn't work out too well for the tiger either."

I think you should all stop medicating your need for conflict by expressing conflicting opinions on medication.