I do believe Europe has evolved faster than America in almost every way imaginable, but the practice of psychiatry itself still hasn't reached the level of a science yet in my opinion. It was only a few decades ago they were using electric shock treatment and performing lobotomies. I have not read any statistics on the mental well being of psychiatrists, so I do not know this as fact for everyone, but the friends I have made in the profession seemed to have been at the jumping off point of mental illness themselves.

I don't want to endorse any religion because meditation is technically not a religious activity, but I believe bringing focused awareness of how you feel while in depression with a sober mind and a teacher to explain each stage is the the best long-term solution to eliminating the emotion. There are groups of people who have lineages of teachers going back thousands of years perfecting the art. Those are the true mental health experts. They will demand you flush the pills though.

Bodhisamaya, how do you know that meditation is more effective at treating depression than, say, homeopathy would be?

And a follow up question: If we take a particular problem like depression, what would be the best way to determine whether or a specific drug or meditation would be more effective at treating the disease? Imagine this question in a hypothetical world where we're not worried about a big money-hungry drug industry, and both the meditation techniques and the drug have been around for an equally long period of time.

I think the desire to seek a more homeopathic lifestyle would be a natural consequence of meditation practice. You become more aware of the cause/effect process at more and more subtle levels.

I can't imagine of a situation where a drug would be more effective than meditation for any emotional problem long-term. Short-term, chocolate and shopping are very effective for beating the blues as well.

that wasn't the question, Bodhisamaya. He's asking you how to determine, "scientifically" what the best form of treatment is.

Anyway, i can't speak for all the doctors in the world, but i'm certainly a generally happy person nowadays. And i take medication. It can't be all bad, then, right..?

As for how much scientific knowledge there is about anti-depressants, well, aside from the multitudes of studies done about results, there is also evidence that anti-depressants protects the brain from the long term, irreversible damage that depression does (shrinking of the hippocampal volume, for one thing). For those patients that do respond fully, longer term studies show that they are significantly better at preventing relapse than placebo. And studies also show that the mechanism of action in the brain is entirely different to that of the placebo effect. The placebo effect seems to work by engaging the opiate system. That's why the placebo effect is so high in medical trials... the patients really are being cured, albeit through a different means. though i don't know how effective placebo is at preventing brain damage.

What the program was presenting is an extremely biased view by twisting words. Yeah, they don't know the full story. But that doesn't mean that they don't know anything at all.

@Raschaverak, you asked what natural treatments for depression there are. i sent you an email last year detailing many of them, so if you still have it, please check that. Methods include excersise, specific nutrition, proper sleep, meditation, and cognitive behavioural therapy.

Javizy Wrote:We could try to understand the reasons behind our pain and explore the possible ways of treating it, but we just throw drugs at the symptoms and hope there are no bad side-effects. Your headache will be back though; even if it takes time, and even if doesn't turn into the migraines that led you to medicate in the first place. You don't find a cure by treating symptoms in complete ignorance of their causes.

Right, i'm going to tackle this widespread idea that medication just "covers up" underlying problems, and they will inevitably return. Then i'm done.

So, what kind of "reasons behind our pain" are we talking about? Well, you mentioned the stress response as one of them, and this is going to be true for many cases of depression. Taking Raschaverak as a case in point, the things that i would think are triggering that stress response for him are, extremely negative thinking in general, and far too much bad self criticalness (trying to turn his problems into a scientific study to correct them).

Now, specifically, the things he's going to need to do to correct that is practise viewing things positively, and learning healthier ways to be self critical, such as making things into fun challenges, rather than identifying a problem and then being overwhelmed when thinking about the work needed to correct it. He basically needs to learn to relax into life, and just enjoy it.
(I'd also advise that he travels around & moves somewhere new, as that's a perfect opportunity to make a lot of new friends.)

The problem is, those things are practically impossible to sustain if you have any kind of serious, long term depression. If you have somewhat milder depression, that can be relieved by making various life changes such as excersise and eating certain foods, then you can relearn how to live in this happy, more relaxed state while you're making those life changes.

What was interesting to me about meditation when i was reading about it, is that it's very close to the same thing... you "practise" being in a certain mood, or feeling compassion, and that's how you come to be that way. You learn to relax into life, and enjoy it. It's basically the antithesis of how you came to be depressed in the first place. The same goes for CBT, and those other things. You practise different thinking patterns and moods, and your depression is relieved. Again, these are very good methods for people who haven't been depressed long term.

My own experience of trying these things was somewhat different though. Certain types of food and excersise would relieve things for a little while, but i couldn't attain that feeling at other times. I practised shittons of positive thinking for months on end, but at the time, that stress response was just, so high, that it's just like painting a smile on top of a pile of rubbish. So, you're smiling with your face, but it still essentially feels like your insides have fallen out somewhere. Your thought's might be correct, but how you feel doesn't match, or doesn't stick.

If those problems are also accompanied by not having a supportive circle of friends, or intense lonliness the way Raschaverak's is, it's going to be even more difficult. Because people just generally don't like negative, depressed people. And when you try to be happy, often you just come off as plain weird, or maybe trying too hard. Again, social life is something you have to relax into. But when this is also feeding into your stress response, obviously that's not the best circumstance to learn in.

So, let's get to medication. How does medication work? Well, like a lot of people said, at the beginning it just numbs you. But this is hugely beneficial in cases like these. Because at the same time you're learning not to care so much about those extremely painful thoughts. They don't affect you in the same way anymore.

Past that, all those good parts of your personality start to re-emerge because you're not so negative anymore. You can remember what it feels like to just be you, and be happy. If you're depressed for a long time, you forget who you are even, nevermind any good points about you. And this was the state you were aiming at in the first place. You start to notice all the great, beautiful things about the world again. At this stage, you're learning to relax into life, and learning how to be happy.

As far as it goes, up to this point, you should take a holiday from life if possible, and just enjoy the new way of living, on your own.

You should probably keep taking your medication until you meet a load more of those generally stressful situations that everyone meets in life. The anti-depressants won't stop you from feeling unhappy, or the stress response from happening, but they will stop you from falling too far, for too long. And gradually, as you meet these situations and realise that you haven't got majorly depressed again, you inadvertantly learn how to not be stressed about these things. You just learn to not care so much, that nothing is really that big a deal, and how to not take life so seriously. Here, you've learnt how to relax into life, be happy, and deal with day-to-day stressful things. What's more, you've put in a ton of practise at doing it. And that's all it takes, really.

So when people tell me that anti-depressants just cover things up, and those problems will return, i just think that's unjustified. Anti-depressants give you the space and the peace of mind to learn all those things that those other methods train you on. Either way, you've still learnt them. If your depression was more mild in the first place, sure, go and practise and learn them on your own, without medication. But if it's more severe, you'll probably be fighting a losing battle at worst, and making your life a lot more difficult for a lot longer than it needs to be at best.

The extent of Rascharevak's self criticalness and negativity, the length of time he's experienced it, the poor concentration and memory, his external situation, the references to suicide, and the fact that he's excersising already and generally not living unhealthily lead me to think that medication is almost certainly going to be the most helpful option for him at this point.

...and that's the last time i'm going to defend medication on these forums. Unless, of course, one of those medical companies wants to approach me with thousands of dollars, of course then i'll happily defend them further!

Aaaand got rejected again on a date.....now I feel lost The girl was perfect: smart, tall, sexy, nice face, nice personality...aaand I failed. Again. I tried to be positive, talked about my plans, whatsoever, but somehow she sensed that I was anxious (well I was, but not because of the her company, but because of my damn cluttering...argghh), that lead her to questions about social life and circle of friends...aaaand I think that's where it stopped.
I've just done some extra reading, it turns out women hate introverts.....perfect. Hm.....I have a capsule full of Frontin left from last year, I wonder If I should just......
Really, I've noticed that I'm happiest when I don't go anywhere. Never outside, just staying in my room. Really, I don't want to go outside anymore.....

Raschaverak Wrote:Aaaand got rejected again on a date.....now I feel lost The girl was perfect: smart, tall, sexy, nice face, nice personality...aaand I failed. Again. I tried to be positive, talked about my plans, whatsoever, but somehow she sensed that I was anxious (well I was, but not because of the her company, but because of my damn cluttering...argghh), that lead her to questions about social life and circle of friends...aaaand I think that's where it stopped.
I've just done some extra reading, it turns out women hate introverts.....perfect. Hm.....I have a capsule full of Frontin left from last year, I wonder If I should just......
Really, I've noticed that I'm happiest when I don't go anywhere. Never outside, just staying in my room. Really, I don't want to go outside anymore.....

Don't let it get to you, this happens to everyone. I believe this will very per person but you have to be able to brush yourself off if anything happens. That's how I do things at least. In the past when I got rejected for asking about dates or relationships,etc. I just went on and looked for the next time. When I think about relationships and all that, I know I had a few chances in the past to take them and I didn't. Sometimes I knocked myself down for it but now that's a distant past. You just need to keep going and laugh at it.

"aaand got rejected again on a date.....now I feel lost"

How about a double date with a good friend?
Might it make you feel more comfortable? Or the opposite?

IceCream,

You make a good case. As I said, I'm sure there are times when medication could help, especially in the more severe cases, where the kind of motivation needed for self-improvement just isn't there. It's possible to take paracetamol and treat the chronic muscle tension in the back of your neck causing your headache. Wouldn't it be nice if doctors at least gave you a quick palpation and encouraged you to think about your posture, sleep habits, tension etc before sending you to the pharmacy? If this is a typical scenario, then good, but I do wonder, considering how difficult it is for people to face their problems, especially in front of other people. If you're convinced that the cause is physical, like some people seem to me, then it's much easier to just take the prescription and say no to your first CBT session.

Quote:What was interesting to me about meditation when i was reading about it, is that it's very close to the same thing... you "practise" being in a certain mood, or feeling compassion, and that's how you come to be that way. You learn to relax into life, and enjoy it. It's basically the antithesis of how you came to be depressed in the first place.

There are many kinds of meditation, so I'm not sure which one you're referring to, but what I've found helpful more than the meditation itself is applying the principles of mindfulness to everyday life. The idea isn't to strive to think a certain way, or judge and banish the thoughts that pass through your mind, but to accept them as they are and let them go; the focus is simply on being in the present moment. The practice of meditation allows you to strengthen your ability to do this.

It's possible to apply it to emotions, physical sensations, sounds and pretty much anything else that you can perceive in real-time. It's absolutely invaluable in controlling your stress response. It's not always possible or even advisable (it's designed to protect you from danger) to prevent, but by being aware of it - by sensing it - you can lessen its impact and avoid habitual, unconscious reactions. It gives you the opportunity to respond to stress.

Eventually, you'll find that a lot of the little things that cause you stress no longer seem significant, and that you don't feel like giving any energy to the "bigger" things like worrying about your future or social skills or whatever causes you anxiety, because you're much happier just appreciating things in the present - stress-free. I've pretty much transformed a 15-year anxiety habit over the past five weeks, and the more I learn about stress, the more determined I am to eradicate it from my life completely.

Yeah!!! that's exactly how i learnt it too!!! You just sort of ride the mood, and as long as you know it's gonna end, you don't care so much. Like, you know it's just stress, so you don't care as much. Those things don't have the force that they would have done anymore, and you can enjoy life as it is now. So, i guess you really do learn the same things either way!!! (i didn't really put that very well, but yknow what i mean)

i guess it depends on what type of depression you have, but for me at least, it wasn't the motivation that was lacking, it's just the inability to be in, or feel that state. So everything you try ends up misdirected and overly analytical, even if you didn't intend it to be. And if you're at that point, i think you can honestly say that depression IS a physical thing then. But that doesn't mean you have some lifelong problem that you're never going to get rid of... it just means that you need the ability to be in that state first. Long term, it's still going to be just you being in that state that changes things, and invokes the brain plasticity to maintain it.

@Raschaverak: i think you're still missing the point, a bit. Honestly, i'm not sure what "cluttering" is (do you mean stuttering?). Well, you only have 2 options: change it, or learn not to feel anxious about it. Honestly, it's probably not the big deal you think it is anyway. The anxiety, which creates a nervous atmosphere is the problem... that's never good for dates. And girls don't hate introverts... they do like confident men that are secure in themselves though. Again, being an introvert isn't the same thing as being socially anxious. Being an introvert just means you enjoy a lot of time on your own, and recharge best that way.
If the lack of social circle really bothers you so much, seriously, move somewhere new. When you're new somewhere, of course you won't have a circle of friends, so it's a perfect opportunity to make new ones.
And still, you're going to get rejected. Ta12121 is totally right, you just have to roll with it. It's not a big deal!

IceCream Wrote:that wasn't the question, Bodhisamaya. He's asking you how to determine, "scientifically" what the best form of treatment is.

Is there a drug that cures, rather than delays depression to when you come off it?
Meditation with the guidance of an experienced instructor does cure depression.

well, i don't think medication does delay depression. i explained why in this post: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid139861

IceCream Wrote:As for the rest of the program's claims, the things like "it's not a good idea to give antidepressant and antipsychotics to pregnant women and children" are very true, but doctors here are also very aware of that, and don't except in exceptional circumstances.

The things like psychological problems are entirely made up, and antidepressants have no effect obviously aren't true.

Things like the side effects and problems withdrawing do exist, but they twisted them to make them sound a lot more problematic than they are in real life, and generally listed the least common, and worst side effects that there can ever be.

etc.

I thought this was a very level-headed assessment. Documentaries and biased info like this are good to make you aware of the propaganda being pushed on people today, not necessarily good to take the opposite advice though. More research is needed if you want to plunge to the other side.

IceCream Wrote:...and doctors do often suggest non medical solutions. You will be told to get an excersise routine and keep it (i got told off by the doctor for this just the other week). You can also get some form of CBT, social skills training, and various other means of support from doctors.

The issue i think a lot of people have with this is that it's usually not so well-favored as the main solution. I think drugs are pushed as the main solution. And I'm not sayin that's the doctor's fault. It's always multi-sided. People (as a result of the educational, media, and social spheres, etc) are just taught to think they can take a pill to solve everything. as a result of such pressures, the doctor would rather probably succumb to their wishes so they could see more clients and bill more to the insurance companies.

Javizzy,

Have you ever been to
http://msngroup.aimoo.com/TheScientificD...w.msnw.htm ?
The moderator is pretty big into the stress response as he thinks stress from the internal (mind) and external (environment, poor or lack of food, etc) unleashes the chain reactions that result in disease. Afterall, his username is HansSelyeWasCorrect , the person who put Stress research into the mainstream! I think its valuable for anybody who wants to look at the actual research (and not dumbed down summary articles written by the more biased media conglomerates) that doesn't get reported in the mainstream although it's a bit jargony. Haven't read all the articles myself, but i think he takes more of a nutrition versus mental side of the stress aspect.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I think the desire to seek a more homeopathic lifestyle would be a natural consequence of meditation practice. You become more aware of the cause/effect process at more and more subtle levels.

I can't imagine of a situation where a drug would be more effective than meditation for any emotional problem long-term. Short-term, chocolate and shopping are very effective for beating the blues as well.

I think you're confused by what homeopathy is. Maybe you mean holistic? Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine that uses highly diluted substances (in fact, so diluted that none of the original substance remains) in order to help with various problems or diseases. I was wondering how you could determine whether a certain non-scientific solution is better than another one. Is meditation more effective than homeopathy, or is homeopathy more effective than meditation?

And, my second question is more along the lines of "Why should I care what you think?" IceCream says that for her depression is a very physical thing, and that medicine helped her get through it and has improved her life in the long term. You say that medication is not helpful in the long term, and that meditation is. Why should I believe you and not her? How do I determine which one works better?

The fact is that personal experience doesn't mean shit her. The fact that meditation has done a lot for you does not mean that it's going to cure Raschaverak's depression. Likewise, the fact that medication helped IceCream does not mean it will help him. This is a bigger question about how you determine whether one method is more effective than another--all the while knowing that there is no perfect solution. I wanted you to comment on that. I think it's important to have an understanding on that bigger question before giving other people serious advice.

My results do seem to be typical for those who have used meditation to reduce the damage from harmful emotions. Homeopathic medicine is not harmful, so why do you think one has to choose between one or the other?

I am not sure what could be more scientific than actual results from those who engage in meditation. Drugs seem to have proven they do not cure depression, only deaden the emotions temporarily. If I go off meditation, I will not relapse into the anger, jealousy or depression that used to control me.

Meditation has been proven to make people happier, has no side effects, and it is free.

I don't know much details about drugs effects on depression (know more on general drugs effects in general) and yes i'm biased towards drugs but am open to modifying positions, but I just wanna steer this convo towards more concrete evidence than beliefs. We have bodhi sayin "Drugs seem to have proven they do not cure depression, only deaden the emotions temporarily" and icecream saying (correct if im mistaken) the opposite? or is it more drugs can prevent longterm brain damage from depression? In any case i think it'd be helpful if you linked what you thought was the best evidence for that claim. Please don't link dozens of studies you simply read the abstract of in pubmed; link stuff u actually read or link to some expert's blog (i think mainstream reporting is too biased to trust) that analyzed the study.

By the way, about the date thing, it's completely normal to get rejected by girls quite often--especially ones that are a good catch. And the girl you describe seems like quite a catch indeed. Especially in Japan I go on dates often; I find it somewhat easy to get girls that are either not so interesting or not so attractive to be into me, but it's a much harder game with girls who are both. Which is why I haven't had a serious girlfriend in too long.

That said, this Friday I'm going out with basically the hottest girl who's ever lived, who also seems to be cool, so wish me luck, haha. I'd be very surprised, pleasantly so, if it ends up working out in the long run.

The rise of Facebook has added a new perspective on all the heartbreaks I endured in my teens and early 20s. They were all soooo beautiful, and when the relationships ended, it felt like the end of the world. Now that I have had the chance to go back and chat with some of those old flames recently, I am like "Holy Jesus thank you for allowing me to be dumped by this horrid beast I once believed to be a Goddess!" They all aged so poorly, got really fat and still hold on to the backwards way of thinking prevalent apparently even today in the sticks of Arkansas.

bodhisamaya Wrote:My results do seem to be typical for those who have used meditation to reduce the damage from harmful emotions. Homeopathic medicine is not harmful, so why do you think one has to choose between one or the other?

I am not sure what could be more scientific than actual results from those who engage in meditation. Drugs seem to have proven they do not cure depression, only deaden the emotions temporarily. If I go off meditation, I will not relapse into the anger, jealousy or depression that used to control me.

Meditation has been proven to make people happier, has no side effects, and it is free.

i'm still not sure why you're ignoring the actual results of people who have been on medication who say that drugs don't just deaden the emotion temporarily.

Either through meditation or through anti-depressants, they both involve a learning process, it seems.

Meditation may be free and lacking in side effects, (well, medication is free for me also) but i very much doubt it would have helped me from the point i was at. You also talk of it being a long hard battle to improve, which it wasn't for me when medication started working, it was more of a natural process, with tons of beautiful and fun parts.

I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't meditate, by all means, people should try it!!! i just don't expect it's going to be the best path for everyone.

Anyway, of course, like Tzadeck says, medication worked for me, but not necessarily for other people. There are many people who don't respond to medication, and i was on my 3rd try and given up hope in it when i responded. For some people, things like meditation are clearly a better option.

p.s. glgl Tzadeck!!!

elhnad Wrote:I don't know much details about drugs effects on depression (know more on general drugs effects in general) and yes i'm biased towards drugs but am open to modifying positions, but I just wanna steer this convo towards more concrete evidence than beliefs. We have bodhi sayin "Drugs seem to have proven they do not cure depression, only deaden the emotions temporarily" and icecream saying (correct if im mistaken) the opposite? or is it more drugs can prevent longterm brain damage from depression? In any case i think it'd be helpful if you linked what you thought was the best evidence for that claim. Please don't link dozens of studies you simply read the abstract of in pubmed; link stuff u actually read or link to some expert's blog (i think mainstream reporting is too biased to trust) that analyzed the study.

It's both! Antidepressants don't only deaden the emotions temporarily, and they prevent brain damage. On the downside, only a certain percentage of people are going to respond fully to any one type of anti-depressant.

Here's a video that backs up that anti-depressants prevents irreversible hippocampal shrinkage: (well, it's somewhere in the video, i don't recall exactly where, sorry)

i haven't watched this yet, but here's something on mental health through mindfulness from the same series of lectures for balance:

I apologize. if it wasn't clear in my post, when i wrote "you" i meant "both of you" as in could both of you provide evidence for your respective claims, not just icecream.

secondly, i wasn't thinking that clearly when writing my post. I agree with icecream that antidepressants can prevent irreversible brain damage and help with depression, I just question whether it's the best way available and that it doesn't lead to other problems. So i guess i wanted to more address Bodhi and his claim that antidepressants do not cure depression. what's the best evidence you've seen for that?

Antidepressants offer no cure
What You Need to know About Depression Medication
Do Anti-depressants Really Work to Treat Depression?
Antidepressants in Bipolar Disorder

There are alternatives to medication that have proven to work over a long period of time that are free of charge and side effects. Keep taking the snake oil if you wish at your own or public expense.

If you want opposing papers that prove medication is effective long-term, there are plenty of doctors who are willing to sign their name to a paper written by a ghostwriter in exchange for a five figure gift from the pharmaceutical industry.

Most likely, if you combine medication with lifestyle changes, you will see an improvement in your mood. If you combine believing in the Easter Bunny with lifestyle changes, you will see the same improvement. Perhaps a sugar pill to give you the confidence to start?

... so, you want to discredit all academic papers as ghostwritten fiction, and then post random articles from the internet written by well, who knows really, there's no credentials at all there, as evidence that antidepressants are simply placebos...? Even those articles you posted don't claim that.

it seems like your world view is challenged by the idea that anti-depressants could actually be helpful for some reason. i don't really understand why...

Experience your emotions. You are robbing yourself of what it is to be human. If you bring focused sober awareness into the experience while you are suffering the depression, you will begin to understand why you do not need the medication. Negative emotions are painful if you do not recognize what they are. Once you do, you can just notice them as a casual observer; as if you are watching a surround-sound 3D screen-enhanced drama on TV.

If roller coasters only went up, they would be no fun.