Hello everybody, i started to study japanese on Sep,29 2010, now is May 20, 2010, and i feel like i don't understand anything.
I finish RTK1 in 3 months and review every sunday ever since. After i finish RTK1 i immediately moved to Kanji Odyssey 2001. I'm now in kanji number 310, i always review my kanji odyssey deck every day, on saturdays, sundays and when i get the day off from work i add 15 new cards, which is 5 new kanji.
The problem is that when i watch japanese videos i still don't understand anything. I always listen to japanese music, and listen to japanese radio on my cell phone on my way to work. Sometimes i even push my self to review my kanji odyssey deck for 2 hours or more (that's only when i have a lot of due cards).
This is how i hear japanese videos."今日は????????????なんで?????????はい??????お父さん.
i feel like i'm just wasting my time with kanji odyssey. I have 2 decks that i made from videos using subs2srs but i haven't study them because i feel i have to finish KO2001.
I think my problem is that i'm only SRSing my KO2001 deck and nothing else. But what else should i SRS. Please any suggestions to help my japanese understanding skills.

You might find this interesting: http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/staff/Pub...trands.pdf . If nothing else it will give you a break from your SRS'ing. I think it is important to have fun and to vary your learning activities in order to help focus your attention and help you to absorb things better. SRS is good in small doses but I find it somewhat boring if overdone and then I tend to tune out. I like to do different things so although I admit that I am still only learning very slowly, at least I am enjoying it a lot more.

three22geo Wrote:Hello everybody, i started to study japanese on Sep,29 2010, now is May 20, 2010, and i feel like i don't understand anything.

This is your problem, moving back in time will do that to you...

Seriously though, lets assume an average Japanese knows around 15k. You've done 310 kanji from KO2001 so thats around like what, 1k words? In reality its even worse since these are the words you think you know but they didn't really "sink in". I'd say at best you are looking around at 500 word vocabulary and since you also have to take into account various conjugations that confuse you (words you know but conjugation makes them unrecognizable) so that leaves us with roughly 250 words you can recognize (generous number if you ask me).

The question is why would you expect anything more than "今日は????????????なんで?????????はい??????お父さん." at this stage of learning?

You just gotta keep at it. You've got a long way to go before you can listen fluently. It takes years. Not months.

Wow you guys are right, i've been killing myself with SRS and trying to understand japanese videos at this early stage.

thurd Wrote:The question is why would you expect anything more than "今日は????????????なんで?????????はい??????お父さん." at this stage of learning?

i thought i wasn't improving

three22geo Wrote:i thought i wasn't improving

Your Japanese definitely has improved dramatically since last August.

i'd suggest the following.

continue to watch videos, preferably with j-subs, and stuff you can understand
i did ko2001 also. things didn't start coming together until i hit the 600 mark. i'm not sure how you do your ko2001, but mine didn't have audio, and it shows. don't expect to be able to listen perfectly if you don't actually practice listening, i still suck at it.

so it sucks that you can only hear basic stuff... but on the plus side, you can hear basic stuff. take your victories when you can get them, as long as it remains interesting you should be alright.

i also didn't really understand songs until i went through it and made sure i knew every word, whether it's through SRS or something else and then all of a sudden listening to it made a lot more sense.

if you can subs2SRS properly, i'd also recommend that. KO2001 is great, but there's a lot of unique words that aren't used often, and there are a lot of common words in kana or common kanji words that aren't covered in the sentences. definitely finish it, but if you want to understand natural stuff you're going to need to go after natural material.

three22geo Wrote:i thought i wasn't improving

I have the same problem as you and I'm already at the 3/3.5k mark concerning vocabulary (even more disappointing). Perhaps this blog entry of mine could help you? http://tanukijapanese.wordpress.com/2011...-porridge/

three22geo Wrote:i feel like i'm just wasting my time with kanji odyssey. I have 2 decks that i made from videos using subs2srs but i haven't study them because i feel i have to finish KO2001.
I think my problem is that i'm only SRSing my KO2001 deck and nothing else. But what else should i SRS. Please any suggestions to help my japanese understanding skills.

I felt similarly (except it was Core instead of KO2001) since most of my subs2srs sentences had a lot of things I didn't know and it seems inefficient compared to Core. Eventually I grew tired of hearing boring, canned sentences and wrote some code to analyze my subs2srs deck so I could learn all the i+1 stuff; it's been working great.

1) Read Japanese the Manga Way (don't SRS or memorize vocab, just get the grammar points) or some other basic grammar guide that also teaches the more common slangy particles so you can actually parse real sentences from shows (or at least the basic ones, anyway).
2) Use my morphology plugin on your subs2srs deck(s), suspend all the non i+1 sentences and sort by vocabRank.
3) Use the subs2srs deck(s). When you run out of i+1 sentences, update via the plugin again.

three22geo Wrote:i thought i wasn't improving

I think the problem is that you quickly get to the point where you can pick out isolated expressions like "何ですか" and "はい／いいえ" etc and that is pretty motivating. Once you already recognise the 200 or so most common words, the frequency of use drops off hard and you have to know a *lot* more words to have anywhere near as noticeable an improvement as this first step. Add grammar you don't know and you're even further away from understanding whole sentences.

In short, you will *never* make progress again as quickly as you did in the first 100 hours of learning japanese. That's just a fact of life. Don't get discouraged by it.

overture2112 Wrote:2) Use my morphology plugin on your subs2srs deck(s), suspend all the non i+1 sentences and sort by vocabRank.
3) Use the subs2srs deck(s). When you run out of i+1 sentences, update via the plugin again.

He? I really don't get the hang of what to do with that plugin? I opened up my srs deck>Browser>Morphine tool>Set VocabRank, but nothing happens. A dialog opens up and what shall i do then?

Hold on... I LOLed. OP, seriously... through learning to read and listening without comprehension you expect to understand native level Japanese?

If you've never heard a word in English, but you know it in writing you have a 50/50 chance of understanding it based on the fact you can probably pronounce that word from its reading. You have been learning English for over 20 years (probably), but Japanese for 5 months and you expect the same - shame on you! Give that Japanese some time to grow and stop expecting yourself to learn to understand native level Japanese by learning to read.

Peace.

"Now, Three2geo, sit down on my comfortable couch. Let's talk shop." Cranks says as he leans over and pats the irresistibly comfortable looking cushion sitting at the head of the large leather couch.
"Dr. Cranks, I need help." Pleadingly TG begs.
"I know, I know. Now tell me why you haven't been doing your subs2srs and listening to level appropriate material." Cranks strong eye contact and deep brown sexy eyes sooth away all of TG's stress and he answers honestly.
"Well, you see I just have to get the Kanji Odyssey deck done. Everyone else is doing it and I really feel that it will bring my Japanese to the next level."
Cranks nods his head knowingly.
"Have you considered what you actually want?" Cranks asks.
"Well, I'm really new to Japanese, but I remember reading a few posts on this forum I like about how I should set clear goals and practice for what I want to actually do with the language first."
"Uh huh." Cranks cool and calm pose finally breaks the barrier and TG just lets it all out.
"I understand, ok. I'm just learning to read, but really... to be, um... honest... I just want to understand what I hear - it's sort of how I define success in Japanese." TG sobs a little as the emotions flow out.
"Mmmm... so what are you going to do about this problem then?" Cranks inquires.
"I don't know. I guess I could make a plan, look at my process and reassess my goals. I think if I focus only on what I want to achieve - like learn how to understand audio content better - and stop doing things that make me feel like I'm not getting anywhere, I'd feel a lot better."
TG looked a lot better too. The stress seemed to have melted away and he seemed a new person, ready for anything that would come his way. He smiled as Cranks gave him some solid advice.
"I agree. You know you could find one of those audio books online that I've heard about - something really easy. Then, maybe, work through it using that subs2srs thing and the script, making sure you understand every word and look up any grammar points and add brief notes to your subs2srs deck. I think that would really help."
"That's excellent. I'm going to do that right away."
TG was clearly excited and was eager to leave. Standing up he handed Cranks US$500,000 for his services and made his way to the door with a spring in his step.
The future starts now TG thought to himself as he walked out the door.
"Yes, it does." Cranks whispered smiling to himself as he waved goodbye.

Edit: When I wrote this I wasn't being a smart-arse, well a little, but what I am trying to point out is you need to find the right process to fit your goal and it needs to come from you, not a forum on the internet. You are your best teacher - that's a fact - so make decisions based on what you have found to work for you.

(Just so you understand where I am coming from, I have done RTK 1, Heisig Kana books, some of Kanzen, 5000+ vocab, sentences, audio vocab, Smart.fm, the core 6000, subs2srs, AJATT, Genki 1+2, Japanese for Busy People and so many other crazy techniques and books that really only fit me and my situation. After all that, I'm still learning what works for me and I am not talking shit when I recommend looking at yourself as your true teacher)

I never feel like I'm improving, but I am. You will be too, as little as you think you actually are. I watched a TV show this morning at 7am.. understood 50% of the dialogue but understood enough of the meaning to "get" the whole plot and character development. Watched it a few hours later with JP Subs. Understood 90% of it.. looked up 10 or so words to fill in gaps I didn't get. (My reading far outstrips my listening.. especially as the material was very slangy not standard dialects at all, plus I don't know tokyo slang for shit.. I study in osaka.. I guess that's one thing about Anki and SRS in general, your reading is your strongest point) a few months ago watching stuff without available English subs to check stuff would have worried me, but now it's something I do without thinking.

The biggest thing I noticed to let me know that I'm improving... people actually just speak to me in Japanese now.

Stop looking for things that get you down, start looking at things you can do, you couldn't do yesterday. Sometimes I'll watch a tv show and understand next to nothing.. and I feel stupid as shit. Then other times I'll watch something and understand every word. keep studying, stop worrying about how much progress your making, and just progress, and one day you'll understand something random out of the blue and think... "wow.. I get it" Little victories.

three22geo Wrote:Hello everybody, i started to study japanese on Sep,29 2010, now is May 20, 2010, and i feel like i don't understand anything.
I finish RTK1 in 3 months and review every sunday ever since.

So assuming the second date should be 2011, that's 7.5 month - 3 months of RTK = 4.5 month of Japanese studying. Yes, it's normal that you don't understand much. Did you really think you could learn a language in 4 months? Come back in 4 years and you'll see that you have made a lot of progress.

Give up, seriously.

I've given up learning Japanese 2 times, and that's why the third time hasn't happened to me for already 2 years.

When you give up, you become enlightened as to why you should learn the language.

Tori-kun Wrote:

overture2112 Wrote:2) Use my morphology plugin on your subs2srs deck(s), suspend all the non i+1 sentences and sort by vocabRank.
3) Use the subs2srs deck(s). When you run out of i+1 sentences, update via the plugin again.

He? I really don't get the hang of what to do with that plugin? I opened up my srs deck>Browser>Morphine tool>Set VocabRank, but nothing happens. A dialog opens up and what shall i do then?

Basically you make a database of all your morphemes you know and use that to fill in information on your cards. Details at Instructions and discussion thread

Have you studied grammar or studied any beginners listening material?

It sounds like you've just learnt Kanji and a bit of vocab, which isn't going to get you far by itself. Getting a beginners textbook and going through the listening exercises couldn't hurt.

stop doing those boring decks that are sucking the life out of you.
go have FUN IN JAPANESE. FUN IMMERSION. music/tv shows/anything like seroiusly.
let's say you did lots of words those from the decks but you probably will not even recognize those very words you memorize when they do pop up since you don't really know how it's actually pronounced/you're not that used to listening to japanese or they talk too fast or too mumbly in your opinion but that's how REAL people talk

just have fun. stop toturing yourself with decks. if the x word is that important you'll come across it again in some real life context when somebody says it in an interesting story or joke etc etc. go read ajatt.

dizmox Wrote:Have you studied grammar or studied any beginners listening material?

I haven't studied any grammar at all

I think what NukeMarine said about learning japanese to the advanced level in only one year is going to my head, i have to stop comparing myself to other people.
oh man i can't believe how right you guys are, especially you CRANKS now i feel stupid, and it gave me a good laugh thanks!!. But now i'm going to work on what you guys suggested thanks everyone!!!! it's a relief i don't have kill myself with decks to understand native japanese.(which now i think is a really stupid thought).

three22geo Wrote:

dizmox Wrote:Have you studied grammar or studied any beginners listening material?

I haven't studied any grammar at all

Well there you go then.

three22geo Wrote:I think what NukeMarine said about learning japanese to the advanced level in only one year is going to my head, i have to stop comparing myself to other people.
oh man i can't believe how right you guys are, especially you CRANKS now i feel stupid, and it gave me a good laugh thanks!!. But now i'm going to work on what you guys suggested thanks everyone!!!! it's a relief i don't have kill myself with decks to understand native japanese.(which now i think is a really stupid thought).

I doubt Nukemarine would ever claim learning japanese to the advanced level in only one year was possible. Just really doesn't sound like him.

But yes, learn some grammar and find some level-appropriate material to study (conventional textbooks are great for this). Katz's ideas that grammar doesn't matter and textbooks are evil and that you just should listen to native stuff all the time don't work for everyone. In particular, he seems to have a violent loathing of conventional study. If that's the case, then sure, his approach is all that's left, but if you really don't mind working through a textbook, do so. Minna no nihongo I&II or genki I&II will boost your japanese massively. Then you can get back into native stuff with a hope in hell of making sense of it.

I believe that Khatz gives an analogy on his site along these lines: Your plane is in mid flight, your moving really fast, or at least at a steady speed, it's just hard to notice it, because it doesn't feel like your going anywhere.

Just keep working at it, you don't learn a language overnight. I'd also suggest trying to watch things with Japanese subtitles, let your reading skills pickup where your listening lacks for now.