Ryuujin27 Wrote:Oh then the book I read by a dutch neuroscientist that's done a lot of pioneering research on the human brain must have been pure nonsense. Some people are genetically wired to have a more reactive HPA-axis, which can easily trigger depression if the person experiences only minor setbacks. Exercise has no effect what so ever on something that is encoded in your DNA.Kuma01 Wrote:And no exercising isn't going to magically make his anxiety go away, nor does it help with people who suffer from actual depression. A hypersensitive stress axis doesn't correct itself just by excercising.I don't have the time to do the research to pull up the studies and facts of why you are wrong right now, so I'll just say: you're wrong.
2011-05-18, 4:00 pm
2011-05-18, 4:16 pm
Ryuujin27 Wrote:I'll have to go with Ryuujin here. The feeling you get after a good workout is comparable to sex. Maybe not quite as good, but pretty damn close. It's gonna reduce stress, nomatter how you slice it.Kuma01 Wrote:And no exercising isn't going to magically make his anxiety go away, nor does it help with people who suffer from actual depression. A hypersensitive stress axis doesn't correct itself just by excercising.I don't have the time to do the research to pull up the studies and facts of why you are wrong right now, so I'll just say: you're wrong.
jettyke Wrote:I don't have links on me, but I've read quite a few articles regarding higher rates of ADD in the present than the past and studies of ADD and things like Multitasking. I'm sure a google search should pop some stuff up.KMDES Wrote:Computers are designed to really screw with your brain, like trying to get accustomed to constantly switching tasks which hurts your attention spanWhere do you get this info from,
do you have any interesting links btw?
I've also noticed this.
And I'm not saying computers were desigend specificially to cause ADD, but it's how they are designed currently to do your work that does it.
Edited: 2011-05-18, 5:09 pm
2011-05-18, 4:34 pm
KMDES Wrote:if you've been playing skinner box games, you could try to figure out how to use some form of extinction proceedure rather than just going cold turkey. It's very well researched...jettyke Wrote:If the friends knew he was going to quit, then by giving him a laptop, they weren't very good friends, were they?Cranks Wrote:After you read this, pick up your computer, go to the window, throw it on the concrete a few floors before. It's time for a change and you don't need it.My friend did it and in a few weeks he borrowed my other friend's laptop and ended up using it for a few years( as enthusiastically as before breaking it)
Also, getting rid of the computer might not be a bad idea. Computers are designed to really screw with your brain, like trying to get accustomed to constantly switching tasks which hurts your attention span, and there's all the skinner-box games out there these days, which basically makes you literally addicted.
Not to mention sitting all day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_...procedures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning
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2011-05-19, 12:21 am
I feel like the OP, only much more hopeless. Now I'm 26, and I feel like I'm in a closed circle. I have a shitty job, studies behind me for which I don't have any real interest at all (never had), no social life... For the last 2-3 months I've been trying to get out of this, but failed...which gets me even more depressed 
I've been trying to get a gf, but it seems impossible: since I'm not a manager, or an engineer, or a programmer, just an economist, from an average university, I can't even get a date, or If I can I don't get a second one, because I clutter, and have low self-esteem - women somehow sense the latter instantly...which is a big turn-off...I was always like this by the way....
I tried to get a social circle, but could not, joining clubs is getting me nowhere, I'm probably not too likable, or nice enough..or I don't know. (although I strive for this, to be in good terms with new people I meet, or to make a good impression). I do not get along with the co-workers at work either, since I hate my job, I have a pretty low performance, and I don't even like talking about work, so this limits my possibilities with them in terms of communication, and so on.... So yeah... besides this, getting my own apartment (without a huuge loan) at this point is impossible (another factor which turns women off - not having your own place ) I really don't know where to go from here.... My life is on hold..and it might be cancelled... Studying something else takes time - years, for this time I simply will not make it doing the jobs I've had, and with no social life / gf.
I feel lost, and lonely... and veery tired.
I've been trying to get a gf, but it seems impossible: since I'm not a manager, or an engineer, or a programmer, just an economist, from an average university, I can't even get a date, or If I can I don't get a second one, because I clutter, and have low self-esteem - women somehow sense the latter instantly...which is a big turn-off...I was always like this by the way.... I tried to get a social circle, but could not, joining clubs is getting me nowhere, I'm probably not too likable, or nice enough..or I don't know. (although I strive for this, to be in good terms with new people I meet, or to make a good impression). I do not get along with the co-workers at work either, since I hate my job, I have a pretty low performance, and I don't even like talking about work, so this limits my possibilities with them in terms of communication, and so on.... So yeah... besides this, getting my own apartment (without a huuge loan) at this point is impossible (another factor which turns women off - not having your own place
) I really don't know where to go from here.... My life is on hold..and it might be cancelled... Studying something else takes time - years, for this time I simply will not make it doing the jobs I've had, and with no social life / gf. I feel lost, and lonely... and veery tired.
2011-05-19, 1:59 am
SpeedKing, If you read this then you are on the internet. Disconnect now and I'll look forward to hearing from you in a month or never - preferably the later as you are too busy for us!
2011-05-19, 2:07 am
Raschaverak:
Dude, why don't you just figure out one thing you want to fix and fix it. You have to be like a train, constantly moving forward, relentlessly.
Also, if you don't meet the needs of the people around you, of course you aren't going to be happy. Your workmates want to talk about work, so just do it. Lie through your teeth if you have to. The same applies to women. Don't lie about who you are, but if you feel you haven't got much of a life - just don't talk about it. Talk about her (as much as possible) and share some things you have predecided to share with others that you have modified to sound way, way better.
"I'm a sucky as fish burger worker. I hate my job."
to
"I work with people and have a challenging job."
When asked about the challenges
"My co-workers are dicks and I hate the customers to death."
becomes
"My co-workers are quirky and we get a few difficult customers with really full on needs."
Try it when you talk. Put the right spin on something and people will like you more. Remember, Rule #1: People only know what you tell them about you. That's it. So use that to your advantage, okay.
Dude, why don't you just figure out one thing you want to fix and fix it. You have to be like a train, constantly moving forward, relentlessly.
Also, if you don't meet the needs of the people around you, of course you aren't going to be happy. Your workmates want to talk about work, so just do it. Lie through your teeth if you have to. The same applies to women. Don't lie about who you are, but if you feel you haven't got much of a life - just don't talk about it. Talk about her (as much as possible) and share some things you have predecided to share with others that you have modified to sound way, way better.
"I'm a sucky as fish burger worker. I hate my job."
to
"I work with people and have a challenging job."
When asked about the challenges
"My co-workers are dicks and I hate the customers to death."
becomes
"My co-workers are quirky and we get a few difficult customers with really full on needs."
Try it when you talk. Put the right spin on something and people will like you more. Remember, Rule #1: People only know what you tell them about you. That's it. So use that to your advantage, okay.
2011-05-19, 2:07 am
Raschaverak
You are young, free of responsibilities and you do have proper (as in complete) education (or you are on your way there at least). That doesn't sound bad at all. You can go pretty much anywhere from there. You can afford to risk and make mistakes. You have more than enough time to change your occupation (and more than once). You don't have to get another education for that but you can if you choose to. You can get in better shape both physically and mentally in a matter of months if you decide so. You are male. You'll be on a dating market for many years to come. You don't have to force it.
You seem to have this strong idea of what you should be according to social standards and what you fail at being. May be try to understand what you really want to be instead and just start going in that direction? It doesn't really need to fit everyone's else expectations.
It's really not economist education, shitty job or lack of your own place that prevent you from getting a gf. People manage to get in relationships without having job and education at all.
Your self-esteem seems to be your biggest problem and that's really the one you need to take care of. Try to take it as a game may be, as a project just like Japanese. Write down things that you feel make you think low about yourself and come up with a plan to improve in each of them. Don't like your looks? Pick a diet and start exercising, get some tan or new haircut, start browsing blogs and read magazines on fashion and do some shopping... whatever brings you closer to what you want to be. Feel bad about your job? Try to decide what you really want to do and see what needs to be done to get there. A lot of professions don't require formal education. Some do require diploma and you may want to pick few books and start educating yourself in that area. Your work life does not have to change in 1 day, just a sense of moving somewhere meaningful will do wonders to what you think of yourself already.
Social life and dates will follow. I don't think you need to force those. People are not studies or work. They don't like when you try too hard. But once you feel better about yourself you'll want to show that 'better you' to people. You'll be getting out more and will feel good about it. And girls will appreciate your confidence.
You are young, free of responsibilities and you do have proper (as in complete) education (or you are on your way there at least). That doesn't sound bad at all. You can go pretty much anywhere from there. You can afford to risk and make mistakes. You have more than enough time to change your occupation (and more than once). You don't have to get another education for that but you can if you choose to. You can get in better shape both physically and mentally in a matter of months if you decide so. You are male. You'll be on a dating market for many years to come. You don't have to force it.
You seem to have this strong idea of what you should be according to social standards and what you fail at being. May be try to understand what you really want to be instead and just start going in that direction? It doesn't really need to fit everyone's else expectations.
It's really not economist education, shitty job or lack of your own place that prevent you from getting a gf. People manage to get in relationships without having job and education at all.
Your self-esteem seems to be your biggest problem and that's really the one you need to take care of. Try to take it as a game may be, as a project just like Japanese. Write down things that you feel make you think low about yourself and come up with a plan to improve in each of them. Don't like your looks? Pick a diet and start exercising, get some tan or new haircut, start browsing blogs and read magazines on fashion and do some shopping... whatever brings you closer to what you want to be. Feel bad about your job? Try to decide what you really want to do and see what needs to be done to get there. A lot of professions don't require formal education. Some do require diploma and you may want to pick few books and start educating yourself in that area. Your work life does not have to change in 1 day, just a sense of moving somewhere meaningful will do wonders to what you think of yourself already.
Social life and dates will follow. I don't think you need to force those. People are not studies or work. They don't like when you try too hard. But once you feel better about yourself you'll want to show that 'better you' to people. You'll be getting out more and will feel good about it. And girls will appreciate your confidence.
2011-05-19, 2:37 am
Raschaverak, if you have some money saved (or can save some) it might be a good idea to sack everything off and go volunteer somewhere or go on a long backpacking trip. You would meet a ton of people (half of them women) and not need to worry about jobs, apartments and degrees 
2011-05-19, 4:07 am
Everybody here has good intentions and really seems genuine about these situations.
However, I feel this forum or anywhere on the internet is not the place for it. I don't believe I or any other person is equipped with the right knowledge and training to help anyone going through a serious problem. You have my support and I wish you the best but maybe you should find someone to talk to or even a counselor, just as someone to talk to.
I am not alienating you, but listen to what you think is right whether it's my advice or anyone else.
However, I feel this forum or anywhere on the internet is not the place for it. I don't believe I or any other person is equipped with the right knowledge and training to help anyone going through a serious problem. You have my support and I wish you the best but maybe you should find someone to talk to or even a counselor, just as someone to talk to.
I am not alienating you, but listen to what you think is right whether it's my advice or anyone else.
2011-05-19, 5:00 am
Raschaverak,
here is a book that might help you.
Summary:
https://www.readability.com/articles/qjcfsmkm
Full text like a book( I read it in a few hours)
http://alexattitude.com/archives/33
"Once a man knows ‘who he is’ and he values his path above all others’ he perpetually communicates a persistent and indifferent frame in any social situation. If a man derives his sense of self by external validation he projects a needy and validation seeking frame.'"
"The Tolerable Guy.
He is ultimately apologetic for everything he does with girls. The few times he does talk to girls he will rarely move things forwards because his perception of courtship is derived from Disney storylines. Eventually this guy will get drunk and settle for some socially conditioned women (fat chick) and ultimately be unhappy in life and under control.
Due to social conditioning this guy considers himself to be low value and takes little action, the action he does take finds him outside his comfort zone which is uncomfortable. He has low value and through inaction inspires no emotions. This is the sort of guy who goes through life ‘treading on eggshells.’ He is a passive and pessimistic guy. He rarely gets girls."
here is a book that might help you.
Summary:
https://www.readability.com/articles/qjcfsmkm
Full text like a book( I read it in a few hours)
http://alexattitude.com/archives/33
"Once a man knows ‘who he is’ and he values his path above all others’ he perpetually communicates a persistent and indifferent frame in any social situation. If a man derives his sense of self by external validation he projects a needy and validation seeking frame.'"
"The Tolerable Guy.
iAurora Wrote:RaschaverakThe average guy, the polar opposite of the naturally attractive guy is the mainstream socially conditioned guy. This is generally a normal enough guy, he goes to bar because he think he is supposed to, he drinks for confidence and rarely if ever approaches.
You seem to have this strong idea of what you should be according to social standards and what you fail at being. May be try to understand what you really want to be instead and just start going in that direction? It doesn't really need to fit everyone's else expectations.
He is ultimately apologetic for everything he does with girls. The few times he does talk to girls he will rarely move things forwards because his perception of courtship is derived from Disney storylines. Eventually this guy will get drunk and settle for some socially conditioned women (fat chick) and ultimately be unhappy in life and under control.
Due to social conditioning this guy considers himself to be low value and takes little action, the action he does take finds him outside his comfort zone which is uncomfortable. He has low value and through inaction inspires no emotions. This is the sort of guy who goes through life ‘treading on eggshells.’ He is a passive and pessimistic guy. He rarely gets girls."
Edited: 2011-05-19, 5:04 am
2011-05-19, 5:36 am
@Raschaverak: all this type of advice is good, and will help you but first and foremost, NoSleepTillFluent (and 何度もいった私 
) please go to the doctors! You've been very depressed for a long time now. You are better for a little while when people give you advice, and then you fall back again... but it's not because you're not trying!!
Honestly, you WILL be able to manage this stuff, but it's going to be a much longer and harder path if you don't go to the doctors!! Please go, and be as honest as possible with them about how you're feeling, and they'll help you in whatever way they think is best!
) please go to the doctors! You've been very depressed for a long time now. You are better for a little while when people give you advice, and then you fall back again... but it's not because you're not trying!!Honestly, you WILL be able to manage this stuff, but it's going to be a much longer and harder path if you don't go to the doctors!! Please go, and be as honest as possible with them about how you're feeling, and they'll help you in whatever way they think is best!
2011-05-19, 8:19 am
IceCream
I've been through a couple of rather bad depressions myself and I'm very well aware of condition when no mental effort can help to gain control over body that just misbehaves. But I really don't think that doctors are an answer for all problems a human can possibly have. Raschaverak in particular sounded more socially lost than having medical condition. And he really needs to act rather than look for excuses not to.
With this said, of course he needs to consult with the doctors in case he finds it physically hard to do what he tries to get done. It's just I saw no indications of that in his original post. He sounded more like someone who just doesn't know what to do.
I've been through a couple of rather bad depressions myself and I'm very well aware of condition when no mental effort can help to gain control over body that just misbehaves. But I really don't think that doctors are an answer for all problems a human can possibly have. Raschaverak in particular sounded more socially lost than having medical condition. And he really needs to act rather than look for excuses not to.
With this said, of course he needs to consult with the doctors in case he finds it physically hard to do what he tries to get done. It's just I saw no indications of that in his original post. He sounded more like someone who just doesn't know what to do.
2011-05-19, 8:30 am
ah, i'm sorry, i didn't mean it to come off like the advice given was wrong, i actually think that the advice you and others gave is excellent!!! my evaluation was based off more than just that post, and i totally agree with your evalution based on the information you have... and everything that you said in your 1st post is dead on imo.
but i've spoken with Raschaverak a few times over the last year by email, and honestly, i think the level of distress he's experiencing is beyond lostness quite a bit. i also know that he has been trying different things, and taking advice to heart. i think all the advice people gave was genuinely good, and people should carry on giving it!!! But, i think he also undoubtably also should see a doctor too, at this point...
but i've spoken with Raschaverak a few times over the last year by email, and honestly, i think the level of distress he's experiencing is beyond lostness quite a bit. i also know that he has been trying different things, and taking advice to heart. i think all the advice people gave was genuinely good, and people should carry on giving it!!! But, i think he also undoubtably also should see a doctor too, at this point...
Edited: 2011-05-19, 8:32 am
2011-05-19, 9:02 am
Ah I see. I didn't really see your post as offending in any way. I was just worried that telling him he needed medical help was a bit on a dangerous side, given there were no obvious indications of him needing it in the post above. When answers are hard to find, it's kinda easy to fall into this 'I'm special case, I have a condition' kind of thinking that is a way of giving up on something that could really be improved. I didn't realize you had a bit more information on his situation than that, sorry.
2011-05-19, 9:15 am
Kuma01 Wrote:Yeah, but the first thing you're doing is assuming he has a hyperactive HPA-axis. You know what they say about assumptions.Ryuujin27 Wrote:Oh then the book I read by a dutch neuroscientist that's done a lot of pioneering research on the human brain must have been pure nonsense. Some people are genetically wired to have a more reactive HPA-axis, which can easily trigger depression if the person experiences only minor setbacks. Exercise has no effect what so ever on something that is encoded in your DNA.Kuma01 Wrote:And no exercising isn't going to magically make his anxiety go away, nor does it help with people who suffer from actual depression. A hypersensitive stress axis doesn't correct itself just by excercising.I don't have the time to do the research to pull up the studies and facts of why you are wrong right now, so I'll just say: you're wrong.
Second, I know all about medical depression. It's caused by chemical reactions in the brain, yadda yadda. I had it - now I don't. I didn't use medication, I just started to fight it. All it takes is the slightest bit of willpower and some baby steps in the right direction and you'll find you'll snowball right into feeling good and being happy. Exercise is a great way to start this, because it doesn't require you to talk to people or interact, and will result in a good looking body which can help confidence, which in turn will let you talk to people more easily.
2011-05-19, 9:31 am
Ryuujin27 Wrote:lol this is like some kind of comedy...Kuma01 Wrote:Yeah, but the first thing you're doing is assuming he has a hyperactive HPA-axis. You know what they say about assumptions.Ryuujin27 Wrote:I don't have the time to do the research to pull up the studies and facts of why you are wrong right now, so I'll just say: you're wrong.Oh then the book I read by a dutch neuroscientist that's done a lot of pioneering research on the human brain must have been pure nonsense. Some people are genetically wired to have a more reactive HPA-axis, which can easily trigger depression if the person experiences only minor setbacks. Exercise has no effect what so ever on something that is encoded in your DNA.
Second, I know all about medical depression. It's caused by chemical reactions in the brain, yadda yadda. I had it - now I don't. I didn't use medication, I just started to fight it. All it takes is the slightest bit of willpower and some baby steps in the right direction and you'll find you'll snowball right into feeling good and being happy. Exercise is a great way to start this, because it doesn't require you to talk to people or interact, and will result in a good looking body which can help confidence, which in turn will let you talk to people more easily.
you're both wrong :p
the truth is, as always, somewhere in the middle and varies between different people.
2011-05-19, 9:39 am
If you really want to get better, the change needs to come from within, even if it does require the assistance of somebody else. I think the first step is to gain a good understanding of anxiety and what it does to your mind and body, particularly your autonomic nervous system. Being sensitised can make you overreact and find it hard to relax - this is what women, or people in general, sense. It also explains fatigue, out-of-control impulses (overeating, OCD, porn addiction etc), and various psychosomatic symptoms. If you're not aware of this, you just assume you're a "loser", a "weirdo", you're "losing it" and perpetuate the self-defeating beliefs and mental restlessness that fuel your anxiety and keep you in the stress cycle.
When people say "chin up" and the like it's extremely patronising, but the effect that changing your thought patterns and beliefs can have on your anxiety/depression is amazing. Relaxing and coming to terms with feelings like fear and shame are practically like a massage for your nerves, and eliminating stress will keep them healthy. It's all easier said than done, but if you've never researched it, I really recommend it over despairing.
I like Claire Weekes explanation of nervous fatigue, but her books are pretty outdated. Cognitive behavioural therapy is a modern approach that's much more empowering for the sufferer than the sort of Freudian BS that dominated the last century, and has a lot of scientific backing too. Somatic experiencing is another interesting way of relieving tension in your ANS and coming to terms with painful feelings/emotions. Meditation/yoga can have similar effects too. It's not easy for everyone, but you are not your thoughts, and you don't need to be ruled by them and let them ruin your body, relationships and the quality of your life.
By the way, I'm not sure who "you" is.
When people say "chin up" and the like it's extremely patronising, but the effect that changing your thought patterns and beliefs can have on your anxiety/depression is amazing. Relaxing and coming to terms with feelings like fear and shame are practically like a massage for your nerves, and eliminating stress will keep them healthy. It's all easier said than done, but if you've never researched it, I really recommend it over despairing.
I like Claire Weekes explanation of nervous fatigue, but her books are pretty outdated. Cognitive behavioural therapy is a modern approach that's much more empowering for the sufferer than the sort of Freudian BS that dominated the last century, and has a lot of scientific backing too. Somatic experiencing is another interesting way of relieving tension in your ANS and coming to terms with painful feelings/emotions. Meditation/yoga can have similar effects too. It's not easy for everyone, but you are not your thoughts, and you don't need to be ruled by them and let them ruin your body, relationships and the quality of your life.
By the way, I'm not sure who "you" is.
2011-05-19, 9:39 am
Ryuujin27 Wrote:I agree with the exercise. The better you look physically, the more confident you get. It just works on so many levels.Kuma01 Wrote:Yeah, but the first thing you're doing is assuming he has a hyperactive HPA-axis. You know what they say about assumptions.Ryuujin27 Wrote:I don't have the time to do the research to pull up the studies and facts of why you are wrong right now, so I'll just say: you're wrong.Oh then the book I read by a dutch neuroscientist that's done a lot of pioneering research on the human brain must have been pure nonsense. Some people are genetically wired to have a more reactive HPA-axis, which can easily trigger depression if the person experiences only minor setbacks. Exercise has no effect what so ever on something that is encoded in your DNA.
Second, I know all about medical depression. It's caused by chemical reactions in the brain, yadda yadda. I had it - now I don't. I didn't use medication, I just started to fight it. All it takes is the slightest bit of willpower and some baby steps in the right direction and you'll find you'll snowball right into feeling good and being happy. Exercise is a great way to start this, because it doesn't require you to talk to people or interact, and will result in a good looking body which can help confidence, which in turn will let you talk to people more easily.
2011-05-20, 8:22 am
Ah, it's how you look at it that matters most, me thinks. If you think you are, you are. Whether that's confident, sexy and hilariously cool, or sad, unhappy and lonely, is up to you.
I suggest you just change your perspective. Why be unhappy when its sunny outside, hopefully; you have a job, some don't; you still have a chance to change, some people are dead; and there are 3 billion something people out there who don't know you yet, that's a lot, ok; and so on. You have a heap to be happy about just there alone without even considering you are a healthy, young, probably really nice, guy who has a future - whether you want it or not: better get to improving that life now, capish.
I suggest you just change your perspective. Why be unhappy when its sunny outside, hopefully; you have a job, some don't; you still have a chance to change, some people are dead; and there are 3 billion something people out there who don't know you yet, that's a lot, ok; and so on. You have a heap to be happy about just there alone without even considering you are a healthy, young, probably really nice, guy who has a future - whether you want it or not: better get to improving that life now, capish.
Edited: 2011-05-20, 8:24 am
2011-05-28, 4:45 am
Well since there's so much advice in here already I'll just say that there's a risk both in overthinking and thinking too little about things, but as long as you set at least one simple, positive goal that you don't have to think about so much (examples: going outside every day, exercising two times a week, study one hour every day) and follow it, that's a good base to work from.
If you do decide to work on your education I definitely recommend using khan's academy as a resource: http://www.khanacademy.org/#browse
If you do decide to work on your education I definitely recommend using khan's academy as a resource: http://www.khanacademy.org/#browse
2011-05-28, 6:53 am
Life is never on hold, and if you are playing it correctly, you will never know what to do except... when they zig, you zag!
Life is soooo much fun if you just let go of beliefs and enjoy
Life is soooo much fun if you just let go of beliefs and enjoy