This'll perhaps be a little personal.

http://electronicintifada.net/blog/ali-a...affa-syria

As a Palestinian, never have I ever been so inspired in my life. This man speaks so nonchalantly, condemning the state of israel, speaks of how he walks back to his old village his (family) would have been kicked out from and what not.

Let me just highlight the significance of all this to anyone that may not know.

Yesterday, the 15th of May is known to Palestinians, and Arabs as Al-Nakba, or, The Catastrophe. The day that 750 000 Palestinians were forcibly sent into exile, hundreds upon hundreds of villages were destroyed, villages massacred, and of course the creation of the state of israel.

Now, according to international law, all refugees, (Now something that amounts to 7 million, the *largest* refugee population (crisis) in the world) have the right to return to their country. We Arabs call this Al-Awda, 'Return'.

And finally, a whole new bunch of racist laws have been passed (or are about to be passed) in the Knesset. The biggest one being one that anything along the lines of the mourning of Al-Nakba (not even stated in words in the actual bill since they refuse to accept such a word) will be barred from funds. Of course one racist law will inevitably condone more strict punishment by the military and police (as has been seen already with deaths, hundreds of injuries, excessive usage of force on peaceful protests).

[http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/05/201151094314585794.html]

I hope to live to see the day that 7 million Palestinians walk back into the border of Palestine and a single state created, and not an imaginary "Jewish State" which is somehow meant to be synonymous with plurality and democracy.

I think we should be realistic and support the two-state solution, not hope for the downfall of Israel, which is a pipe-dream. I agree that a country founded upon a religion is a bad idea.

Great, more fighting in the world. Awesome...

KMDES Wrote:Great, more fighting in the world. Awesome...

fighting happens way too often in the world...

God, this omniscient real-estate agent, has promised the same land to different peoples.

ta12121 Wrote:

KMDES Wrote:Great, more fighting in the world. Awesome...

fighting happens way too often in the world...

No kidding. :/

twinzen Wrote:God, this omniscient real-estate agent, has promised the same land to different peoples.

Does he get double the commission too?

As an Australian, i just find the whole thing nuts. We're talking about a slab of land 1/3 the size of Tasmania. If i've done my numbers right, you could fit 370 israels in Australia.

Let's not show any favouritism, move *all* the residents out, and leave only a few religious caretakers and tourist guides.

The problem with this is, what do you do with the Jews? WWII showed how dangerous it is to be a homeless race, persecuted wherever you go. The idea of Israel being a Jewish state has to be seen in that light: it's a place where Jews can be guaranteed that the government is on their side and won't just turn around and make them a scapegoat again.

The mistake was making their state on top of the most contentious land on earth. Sure, it's the logical place in terms of their history, but you can't expect to vacate a land for 2000 years and then just reclaim it. But all that is past now...

The problem with many 2 state solutions is that they leave Israel with a very difficult country to defend. What stops the Arab powers 10 years down the track massing their armies on Israel's new tighter borders and invading? Because, they've never done that before and surely could be trusted to allow Israel's peaceful coexistence, right?

zigmonty Wrote:What stops the Arab powers 10 years down the track massing their armies on Israel's new tighter borders and invading? Because, they've never done that before and surely could be trusted to allow Israel's peaceful coexistence, right?

The fact that Israel has an arsenal of nuclear weapons and is the US's greatest ally are probably good reasons. Israel is the biggest aggressor in the region, I'd remember that before criticising other states for border encroachment etc.

Saying that 750,000 Palestinians were forcefully expelled by the Jews is very inaccurate.

It was far more complicated than that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_t...ian_exodus

And lets not forget all the Jews who were ethnically cleansed (cleansed - not fleeing ongoing warfare) from the Middle East. While we're on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exod....80.932008

kitakitsune Wrote:Saying that 750,000 Palestinians were forcefully expelled by the Jews is very inaccurate.

It was far more complicated than that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_t...ian_exodus

And lets not forget all the Jews who were ethnically cleansed (cleansed - not fleeing ongoing warfare) from the Middle East. While we're on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exod....80.932008

It was war, people leave war ridden countries( I did). But that doesn't take away the right to return. I do know that people have taken the land that my family used to own, but currently I and my family has no need for it so it would be wrong of me to go back and level their homes, because of the long time of absense. The Palestinian refuge do need to return though, and the Israely settlers have many more options like me, than destroying poor peoples homes.

SheekuAltair Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:Saying that 750,000 Palestinians were forcefully expelled by the Jews is very inaccurate.

It was far more complicated than that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_t...ian_exodus

And lets not forget all the Jews who were ethnically cleansed (cleansed - not fleeing ongoing warfare) from the Middle East. While we're on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exod....80.932008

It was war, people leave war ridden countries( I did). But that doesn't take away the right to return. I do know that people have taken the land that my family used to own, but currently I and my family has no need for it so it would be wrong of me to go back and level their homes, because of the long time of absense. The Palestinian refuge do need to return though, and the Israely settlers have many more options like me, than destroying poor peoples homes.

And there is still no peace. Once the Arab nations make peace with Israel then they can talk about a more permanent settlement for the Palestinian situation.

thecite Wrote:Israel is the biggest aggressor in the region, I'd remember that before criticising other states for border encroachment etc.

Care to cite dates? Israel's been attacked more than it has attacked. Even the 6 day war is questionable. Sure, they're aggressive within their own borders and have a tendency to hang on to occupied territory until forced to give it up, but they're hardly guilty of starting most of the arab-israeli wars. It doesn't matter who fires first. Massing troops along a border has historically been considered a strong justification for preemptive attack, especially considering the average tank drive time from the border to their capital.

I'm not defending Israel's actions, but this problem was created by ignorant outsiders drawing lines on a map. More won't help.

Such nonsense. I would gladly sacrifice my own beloved Buddhism into the bonfire if it meant eliminating the three Abrahamic war religions from this planet.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Such nonsense. I would gladly sacrifice my own beloved Buddhism into the bonfire if it meant eliminating the three Abrahamic war religions from this planet.

Can't say i disagree. Wait... the closest thing i have to a religion is science and i'm sure as hell not throwing that into the bonfire!

Still, whoever invented the concept of "holy land" should be shot. Doubly so for "promised land"...

Kitakitsune

What Arab nations? Most Arab dictators are allied with Israel anyway. And the Israelis saying :"Yes, you'll get your own country soon, now make some room for our settlers until the negotiations are over." will not get peace any closer. I don't know of any country or person who would consider such actions right.

No Arab nation is allied with Israel. Egypt and Jordan have peace agreements with Israel but the vast majority of their citizens are against peace with Israel. Syria and Saudi Arabia are still officially at war with Israel. Lebanon is once again a puppet of Syria.

And you have Iran as the number one supporter of various terrorist organizations stirring up all kinds of nonsense. I believe Iran is also "officially" at war with Israel.

kitakitsune Wrote:Saying that 750,000 Palestinians were forcefully expelled by the Jews is very inaccurate.

It was far more complicated than that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_t...ian_exodus

And lets not forget all the Jews who were ethnically cleansed (cleansed - not fleeing ongoing warfare) from the Middle East. While we're on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exod....80.932008

You have activated my trap card! I summon, 'Plight of the Romani!'

Seriously, when it comes to the holocaust, no one even mentions the Romani, though probably a higher percentage of them were slaughtered per capita.

Also, people don't war because of religion, they war because they want to war. Religion is just a scapegoat used in justifying said war. If you take away their religion, they'll just come up with some other excuse to war.

KMDES Wrote:Also, people don't war because of religion, they war because they want to war. Religion is just a scapegoat used in justifying said war. If you take away their religion, they'll just come up with some other excuse to war.

There is nothing else as effective in causing people to go against their own inner sense of morality and rational thinking as the beliefs behind the three major war religions.

bodhisamaya Wrote:

KMDES Wrote:Also, people don't war because of religion, they war because they want to war. Religion is just a scapegoat used in justifying said war. If you take away their religion, they'll just come up with some other excuse to war.

There is nothing else as effective in causing people to go against their own inner sense of morality and rational thinking as the beliefs behind the three major war religions.

There's no need to exaggerate things, and tell them like if they were facts. Considering some of the most violent wars, within the century, were either tribal and political, and had nothing to do with religion, some of the deadliest ones happening in Eastern Asia, buddhism/atheism didn't stop them from happening. I'd like to think that people being here and studying asian history/culture would make us a little bit more aware of that, than others.

It is not exaggeration. I grew up in a Christian church and war is celebrated as God's army of angels is guaranteed to win against what ever political power is believed to be under the control of Satan at the time. People actually wait in giddy anticipation for this war to occur and prophecy to be filled. The Jewish god was originally worshiped as a god of war as he won favor over the other gods worshiped at the time for that reason. Muhammad himself led warriors into battle as a military leader.

bodhisamaya Wrote:It is not exaggeration. I grew up in a Christian church and war is celebrated as God's army of angels is guaranteed to win against what ever political power is believed to be under the control of Satan at the time. People actually wait in giddy anticipation for this war to occur and prophecy to be filled. The Jewish god was originally worshiped as a god of war as he won favor over the other gods worshiped at the time for that reason. Muhammad himself led warriors into battle as a military leader.

Your anecdotal experience doesn't change that the most violent conflicts were secular: I already did look at the most violent conflicts either the recent 100 years or after the cold war; the religious ones were few in numbers.

And lastly to war references in Christianity and Islam; well those old days were not peaceful and Muhammad(pbuh) was forced to war for survival in a conflict heavy part of the world, after his followers were persucuted/tortured/killed and he was exiled from his home city. But he never fought dishonorably like todays terrorists. As for Jesus(pbuh) and his followers, well they became food for the lions. In all fairness, they were going against the Roman empire. The world was crazy and not ready for a pacifist movement. Besides what religions would be there instead: Roman religion, celtic, norse, aztec and other polytheistic religions that can't be compared to the Abrahamic religion in terms of war drums.

Nothing like a discussion about Israel and Palestine to bring out the unity in people.
/sarcasm

bodhisamaya Wrote:

KMDES Wrote:Also, people don't war because of religion, they war because they want to war. Religion is just a scapegoat used in justifying said war. If you take away their religion, they'll just come up with some other excuse to war.

There is nothing else as effective in causing people to go against their own inner sense of morality and rational thinking as the beliefs behind the three major war religions.

Are you sure it's the religion that causes it, or does the religion draw people to it that would already want war?

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
--Steven Weinberg

twinzen Wrote:With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
--Steven Weinberg

Or a paycheck.