bodhisamaya Wrote:One thing you have to admit is that these Gods who speak to the Jews, Muslims and Christians all enjoy watching war as a spectator sport. They are all supposed to be the same God, but if that was true, that would make for even stranger intentions behind his conversations with humans. If you take the leap of faith and accept that God actually spoke to these people, why would it be assumed this was a loving God and not one that wagers on battles like a Filipino would on fighting roosters? Do only good deities have superpowers?

Okay, since you really want to open Pandora's box. Suppose there's God (which I believe of course) then what else is true: Afterlife, Paradise, Hell and all that.

This means that God's purpose overweights our meager life: because death is in grand scheme of things not much different from booking an airplane ticket to another destination. A person really doesn't die, like in an atheist sense. What matters is what a person does during one phase of his "immortal life", and the choices he makes. In other words, yes there's suffering and wars, but a human is supposed to despite that choose God and make the right choices. All kinds of suffering in this life, is in an immortal life nothing different from a sneeze/small headache in a human life. I don't think they have the same meaning to an eternal being as God, or to you/me if you/me died from cancer and barely remembered it a billion years later. There's no lesson to be learned in a life of luxury. True appreciation only comes after suffering.

Of course an atheist, would think that the suffering here means the end to everything. That a person isn't immortal. And hence if one had a sad life, then he is supposed to be pitied. A religious person knows that this is only a phase of life, and that death/suffering isn't really what is important but the choices one makes. The atheist can't blame God. The religious can't blame God either.

There is no reason to care about any kind of mundane wish like owning a piece of land if you are only in a body for 80 or so years and then enjoy your eternal reward afterwards. If this was the case, I would be praying to be murdered as quickly as possible.

bodhisamaya Wrote:There is no reason to care about any kind of mundane wish like owning a piece of land if you are only in a body for 80 or so years and then enjoy your eternal reward afterwards. If this was the case, I would be praying to be murdered as quickly as possible.

It's not my land and it's not your land. And suicide is forbidden in Islam, because although this life is short, it is what determines the characteristics/personality of the afterlife. There are requirements and responsibilities for a Muslim person, waiting and living as a monk for the afterlife is forbidden. Becoming a coward and rolling over for anyone who takes your property, isn't one of the divine preferred personality I'd think.

Why is allowing another to take your property being a coward? It would seem to show wisdom to not attempt to hold on to impermanent possessions. Being a monk is forbidden? What is the harm in being a monk?

bodhisamaya Wrote:Why is allowing another to take your property being a coward? It would seen to show wisdom to not attempt to hold on to impermanent possessions. Being a monk is forbidden? What is the harm in being a monk?

Well, if I was evil minded, I'd ask you to give me your address and I'll take everything from you. Then be wise first, and give me your address.

And living as a monk is not much different than living as a drug addict and depending on others for livelihood. It's not great for society or for oneself. A Muslim is supposed to live a normal life and contribute to his family among others. But there still are Muslims like that though, even though they wouldn't call themselves monks, they live like monks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monasticism...onasticism

Actually, if you stole everything I have including what is in my bank account, you would make off with at most about US $2,000. I don't even lock my doors.
Come take what you need
大阪府枚方市御殿山南町３－５７－５０１

What is the benefit of living a normal life? Monks in most religions serve as spiritual guides in exchange for meager donations of food. They have unlimited time to meditate and contemplate their religious teachings and so serve an invaluable service to their faith. Considering Muslims are involved in the majority of religious conflicts around the world, it might help to have these full-time philosophers.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Actually, if you stole everything I have including what is in my bank account, you would make off with at most about US $2,000. I don't even lock my doors.

That will be enough for this month. I demand monthly checks, of course. But PM the info to me, I don't want anyone else to find out.

bodhisamaya Wrote:What is the benefit of living a normal life? Monks in most religions serve as spiritual guides in exchange for meager donations of food. They have unlimited time to meditate and contemplate their religious teachings and so serve an invaluable service to their faith. Considering Muslims are involved in the majority of religious conflicts around the world, it might help to have these full-time philosophers.

Surely you jest. A: Our monk versions is the main problem source; The Taliban for example, who are mainly analphabetic monks. And our Muslim monks who live on social welfare cruising the western world for new young terrorist recruits... If they sat down and actually studied what Islam has to say, we wouldn't face these problems.

B: The greatest Muslim philosophers were the opposite, they worked they learned they were knowledged in Islam, Mathematics, Astronomy, Litterature, among others and were not afraid to seek knowledge, instead of sitting on their ass and eventually wither in their knowledge.

I am not sure what being a Muslim monk would be like, but I would guess that 95% of the population would not last a month in a Tibetan Buddhist monastery. Mentally, emotionally and physically, the marines have nothing on them.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I am not sure what being a Muslim monk would be like, but I would guess that 95% of the population would not last a month in a Tibetan Buddhist monastery. Mentally, emotionally and physically, the marines have nothing on them.

What? Tibetan monks and marines?

"guess that 95% of the population would not last a month in a Tibetan Buddhist monastery."

A: The Tibetans live in relative peace. B: There are many Muslims in Tibet, and from what I've seen Muslims and the Buddhist are strongly united there.

" Mentally, emotionally and physically, the marines have nothing on them."
Hmm... I don't actually know how to respond to this. There's only one way to find out: A gladiator fight.

I was a minor monk for a while, but my friends in Hawaii who joined a serious monastery had intense experiences. For 40 months, they were only allowed to sleep between midnight and 4am. During this time, they have to continue sitting up. The other 20 hours a day are spent with study, meditation, debate and prostrations. Prostrations are an exercise they do four hours a day and leave the monks really fit under those robes. There are no days off in that 40 months.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I was a minor monk for a while, but my friends in Hawaii who joined a serious monastery had intense experiences. For 40 months, they were only allowed to sleep between midnight and 4am. During this time, they have to continue sitting up. The other 20 hours a day are spent with study, meditation, debate and prostrations. Prostrations are an exercise they do four hours a day and leave the monks really fit under those robes. There are no days off in that 40 months.

And you're saying Muslims can't do that? Give me 10 suicide bombers and I'll prove you wrong. Ali, Said stand on that spot on one leg for 40 days or I'll make you wish you blew yourself off. And where are your cousins?

It's game on!

zigmonty Wrote:

liosama Wrote:israel is, was, and always will be in the hearts and minds of Arabs a colony.

And the middle east is, was and always will be a war-ridden hellhole. If you can't see why the attitudes in your post are every bit as much a part of the problem as right-wing Zionist wankers who see themselves as god's gift to the world... well... whatever.

I for one look forward to the day we wean ourselves off oil and can go back to not giving two shits about what goes on in middle east.

My attitudes are not a problem. Though I do not recognize the state of israel, evident by the immature fact that I refuse to even capitlise the i in israel. As was put forward by you in a few posts back, I do certainly accept the notion for a group of people asserting self determination, theres' nothing wrong with that. But again, as mentioned before, it should not come about from dispossessing a whole indigenous population.

2. The middle east is a war ridden hell hole you are correct. But what does that have to do with anything. "Go back to not giving two shits about what goes on" Really?
"***** them, let them fend for themselves" how is that not an attitude problem? So you; go into a continent, colonise, dispose, destabilize, and restructure their entire economic infrastructure, spoil generations worth of civil progress. Then, after decolonizing, you don't disappear entirely, the economic footprint still remains. Just think about what you've just said. I refuse to point out the obvious.

3. Might will never make right. It's as simple as that. I can't simply turn around and look forward, how is that fair at all?

4. Bodhisamaya You've really crossed the line with this religion thing. I've already said not to call my land is 'crappy', it offends me. It is not a religious conflict, so please do not call it one.

For most people, meditating is the most difficult part. Sitting and focusing your mind on itself is very challenging for beginners. If a person had a mental inclination that would allow them to be a suicide bomber, they would not be prepared for what they would see in their own minds.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Actually, if you stole everything I have including what is in my bank account, you would make off with at most about US $2,000. I don't even lock my doors.
Come take what you need
大阪府枚方市御殿山南町３－５７－５０１

What is the benefit of living a normal life? Monks in most religions serve as spiritual guides in exchange for meager donations of food. They have unlimited time to meditate and contemplate their religious teachings and so serve an invaluable service to their faith. Considering Muslims are involved in the majority of religious conflicts around the world, it might help to have these full-time philosophers.

please can i have your $2000? i'll go and volunteer with it

IceCream Wrote:please can i have your $2000? i'll go and volunteer with it

I don't actually have that in cash. That includes the value of my laptop, suits and books. You don't actually need money to volunteer besides the airfare if you want to do so abroad. Stay in a nunnery and teach English in India!

@Liosma
It is only land. Even if it was somewhere amazing like Hawaii, for your own happiness, it is best not to get attached to such things when the world is such a big place and life is so short.

damn! ahahah just kidding.

when i have the airfare and a reasonable sleeping pattern, that's exactly what i'm gonna do in one form or another...

bodhisamaya Wrote:For most people, meditating is the most difficult part. Sitting and focusing your mind on itself is very challenging for beginners. If a person had a mental inclination that would allow them to be a suicide bomber, they would not be prepared for what they would see in their own minds.

Muslims meditate daily five times as they pray, at least. I actually get this goosebump feeling when I meditate, where I feel energy circulating since I was little. The Sufi sect has though taken it one step further, all they do is meditate. It would be difficult to know who influenced the other here, Buddhism or Islam, but I think it happened somewhere and I haven't yet done the proper research.

You're underestimating Islam a lot. I meant the suicide bomber as a half joke, but you don't appreciate either the mental strength it takes to face a stronger enemy and a certain death. Take your marines for example, they always almost certainly come out alive, and so doesn't have the same mental strength. While the insurgents know they will almost likely die and still fight.

If you know you are going to Heaven, it doesn't take any courage at all to die.

I asked a Muslim coworker of mine about his practice and he said that he does not use his imagination during prayers because you can't comprehend God, so I am not sure it is the same type of Tantric meditative method.

In Hawaii, people of all religions get together on the full moon and do something called "Sufi Dancing". Most of the participants are hippies and so hardly wear any clothing, so I doubt it would be approved of by more mainstream Muslims. Though I enjoyed going to the events usually held in a beautiful location near the beach.

liosama Wrote:As a Palestinian, never have I ever been so inspired in my life.

liosama, please don't take this the wrong way, but I see that you live in Sydney, so just out of curiosity, were you born in Palestine or Australia?

Also for me, this thread tends to show the negative side that religion has upon the world. Forever segregating and alienating humans from one another, when as far as we are concerned, are 'civilised' creatures.

IceCream Wrote:damn! ahahah just kidding.

when i have the airfare and a reasonable sleeping pattern, that's exactly what i'm gonna do in one form or another...

Actually, I do sponsor those who teach while living as nuns in India. Their meager living expenses only amount to about $30/month. I plan on retiring in the Himalayan town of Sikkim some time in the next 10~20 years and use the experience I am gaining as an English teacher in Japan to help the refugees there.

bodhisamaya Wrote:If you know you are going to Heaven, it doesn't take any courage at all to die.

I asked a Muslim coworker of mine about his practice and he said that he does not use his imagination during prayers because you can't comprehend God, so I am not sure it is the same type of Tantric meditative method.

In Hawaii, people of all religions get together on the full moon and do something called "Sufi Dancing". Most of the participants are hippies and so hardly wear any clothing, so I doubt it would be approved of by more mainstream Muslims. Though I enjoyed going to the events usually held in a beautiful location near the beach.

I didn't say most Muslims meditate, as in Buddhistic sense. But some do experience, like I think me, meditation even before I knew about it. I'm not surprised your coworker didn't know, because I've already asked others if they feel a strange energy surge when they pray myself. It doesn't happen to everyone. And there's sufi sect of course who Sufi dance (even if your hippi friends did a form of it), Muslims who chant "Allah" for hours, until they spasm on the ground or something.

"If you know you are going to Heaven, it doesn't take any courage at all to die. "
. There's certainly no courage if you are technologically advanced and fight unfairly.

What do you think of that show Little Mosque on the Prairie? I really liked it up until season 4 started.

nest0r Wrote:What do you think of that show Little Mosque on the Prairie? I really liked it up until season 4 started.

If you were asking me. Saw the first episode, don't like comedies much. And Islam is a touching subject for me, so I doubly can't watch a comedy about it. Maybe some other day.

bodhisamaya, sendaidan,

this really doesn't have as much to do with religion as you think. The fact that most people who live there are religious doesn't mean it's a religious problem.

other, much more major factors involved are:
* historical events (pre-1900 i'm not particularly aware of)
* the creation of the state of Israel by international entities. If you ever studied the treaty of Versailles in school, this was another of those doomed-to-failure ideas that the winners of the second world war decided upon. The effect of this is that Israel exists by the right that was given to them by these countries.
* nazi sentiments that infiltered the middle east as well as europe during the second world war.
* the extreme right wing Israeli government, and how it has gone about clearing Palestine to make room for it's settlers using violence and threats, and extreme military action against anyone who disagrees
* social factors such as the difference in standards of living between Israel and the areas where Palestinians still live. This is not only due to Israeli good management of the economy and lack of dictatorship, but the restrictions imposed on Palestinians by the Israelis, etc.
* american support of Israel to the point that nobody can hold them accountable to their actions, not even America. Despite the large amounts of funding given, even the American president doesn't have the power to make the Israeli government comply with their wishes because of Jewish support inside America.

It's not about just holding onto some piece of land which they all believe is their own holyland, at all. It's about the consequences of a long history of violent oppression, and what happens when the winners of war construct arbitrary laws that are doomed to failure.

bodhisamaya Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:damn! ahahah just kidding.

when i have the airfare and a reasonable sleeping pattern, that's exactly what i'm gonna do in one form or another...

Actually, I do sponsor those who teach while living as nuns in India. Their meager living expenses only amount to about $30/month. I plan on retiring in the Himalayan town of Sikkim some time in the next 10~20 years and use the experience I am gaining as an English teacher in Japan to help the refugees there.

ahhh i've been to Sikkim, and to one of the refugee places. i bought some stuff from them. Sikkim is really really beautiful!!!