nest0r Wrote:Yes, this is all very interesting, but what do you think about gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, evolution, and atheism in this Palestine/Israel context?

You got it the other way around! Reconsider your way of thinking Mr. nest0r. Humanity is the most precious thing humanity has!!

IceCream Wrote:... maybe something to do with the billions of dollars of "aid" money that pour in from America every year?

If economic growth was related to American foreign aid then the rest of the Middle East would be really rich...

IceCream Wrote:Which Arabs? The Christian ones?

Um, the Muslim ones. The over 1.2 million of them who live in Israel.

IceCream Wrote:They may have full human rights, but the majority of christians in the region also are quite non-extremist, i read. Often they end up leaving (their holy land too) because of the extremist way Israel acts towards palestine, and it's apparent inability to abide by international law.

No idea what you're talking about.

IceCream Wrote:Why is it, you think, that Christians and Muslims can live together, but not Jewish Israelis?

It's called antisemitism.

IceCream Wrote:And please, stop quoting things that happened before the year 1900. Shouldn't you be a little more concerned about things that are going on now, and well within your lifetime?

Anyway, didn't your parents ever teach you that 2 wrongs don't make a right?

I didn't bring up a single thing before 1948. Jordan occupied the Palestinian West Bank from 1948 until 1967 and during this time no Jews were allowed to worship in Old Jerusalem. That sounds tolerant.

And the Jews getting ethnically cleansed from the Arab Middle East is modern history. For example, Arabs were so tolerant of living with Jews in Iraq that they responded to the creation Israel by expelling 140,000 Jews. Same thing happened everywhere in the Middle East except Lebanon. Why is it that such tolerant people react to the creation of a Jewish state by expelling all of their Jews to that country?

There is a big difference between this and what Israel did to Palestinians. Most Palestinians packed up and left not because a Jewish soldier threatened to kill their family but because there was a war in which the Arab world tried to destroy infant Israel and people fled. They never got to come back to their land because no country in the region nor an organized Palestinian group recognized Israel's right to existence.

All of the problems in the region stem from that simple fact. That the Arabs don't believe Israel has a right to exist. So there has been 60+ years of war.

That was my last post.

SheekuAltair Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:People do have the right to form nations under the principals of self-determination.

Not on the expense of someone else. I'm guessing you worded it wrong, but if someone is very determined they can take away your home and property?

I'm a bit cautious of simplistic arguments like that. By this definition, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, pretty much all of south america, etc don't have a right to exist. And that's only the countries with relatively recent migrations. Go back far enough in history, and the modern english people are invaders too, etc.

Regardless of whether land grabs made generations ago would be considered legally valid today, they have become legally valid by the "I was born here, dickhead" rule. You don't have the right to point to history and say "this is my great grandfather's land and your great grandfather sole it" (well, possibly on an individual basis, but not on the scale of nations). I have nothing to do with that and neither do you. The sins of the father are not visited upon the son.

Regardless of whether the jewish migration to palestine was a good idea idea or not and whether the declaration of israeli independence was a good idea or not, it's history. It happened before most people on both sides were born. It's done. Evicting the jews from Israel now (as many Arab nations more or less claim to be their goal) is not legally valid. It would be ethnic cleansing bordering on genocide. And i have no idea how you are supposed to have peaceful relations with that as the background.

The Jews live there now... but they have no right to it because the palestinians lived there a few generations ago... but they have no right to it because the Jews lived there 2000 years ago... but they have no right to it because they're originally from egypt, right? Really? Jt's just such an immature way of thinking. Almost of the type of "my daddy can beat your daddy up!"

Note: Don't take this as me condoning current, recently constructed Israeli settlements. That shit is illegal and seriously stupid. Like i said, there are people who don't want peace on both sides.

KMDES Wrote:I hate people who hate.

people are always complaining that i complain too much

and if i complain about that they use that as evidence



i can never win at life

undead_saif Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:Yes, this is all very interesting, but what do you think about gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, evolution, and atheism in this Palestine/Israel context?

You got it the other way around! Reconsider your way of thinking Mr. nest0r. Humanity is the most precious thing humanity has!!

“The Juwes are
the men that
Will not
be Blamed
for nothing”

kitakitsune Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:... maybe something to do with the billions of dollars of "aid" money that pour in from America every year?

If economic growth was related to American foreign aid then the rest of the Middle East would be really rich...

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%...ite_note-0
"The main expression of Congressional support for Israel has been foreign aid, with Israel being the largest recipient of US aid from 1976 to 2004"
http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics...gn-aid.htm
as you can see, on any scale, Israel (and Egypt) are the highest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat...oreign_Aid
as you can see, the per person aid given to Israel even in 2009 is the highest, even outstripping Afghanistan and Iraq, countries that they recently went to war with.

I'm not trying to say the aid alone is the only reason Israel has good living standards, clearly it isn't, but still, come on...

kitakitsune Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:Which Arabs? The Christian ones?

Um, the Muslim ones. The over 1.2 million of them who live in Israel.

at least a quarter of which are "present absentees", who are not allowed back to their houses, even if they can prove they own them, and left involuntarily. But hey, they get a vote, so obviously that makes Israel the epitomy of humanity...?
What's the bet that if they made up a larger percentage of the population (enough to displace the extremist right wing Israeli government), they would suddenly find themselves displaced or without a vote...

kitakitsune Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:They may have full human rights, but the majority of christians in the region also are quite non-extremist, i read. Often they end up leaving (their holy land too) because of the extremist way Israel acts towards palestine, and it's apparent inability to abide by international law.

No idea what you're talking about.

really? You had no idea that creating new settlements, which is still continuing, CLEARLY violates international law, and they've been told so on numerous occasions now by the United Nations, and yet still won't stop...?
Well, you can start here:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=israel+internationa...violations

There's another legal or human rights violation in the news every other week. It's actually pretty hard to miss, so i don't know how you have...

If you meant the non-extremists leaving because of these sorts of violations and their consequences, there's been a couple articles about it in the National Geographic over the past couple years, i'm sure you can find them if your interested.

kitakitsune Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:Why is it, you think, that Christians and Muslims can live together, but not Jewish Israelis?

It's called antisemitism.

right... everyone hates Jews, just for being Jewish. Nothing at all to do with the way the Israeli government has gone about things, and continues to go about things.

kitakitsune Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:And please, stop quoting things that happened before the year 1900. Shouldn't you be a little more concerned about things that are going on now, and well within your lifetime?

Anyway, didn't your parents ever teach you that 2 wrongs don't make a right?

I didn't bring up a single thing before 1948. Jordan occupied the Palestinian West Bank from 1948 until 1967 and during this time no Jews were allowed to worship in Old Jerusalem. That sounds tolerant.

umm... you were citing things that happened in the Ottoman empire and criticising arabs for their intolerance.

kitakitsune Wrote:And the Jews getting ethnically cleansed from the Arab Middle East is modern history. For example, Arabs were so tolerant of living with Jews in Iraq that they responded to the creation Israel by expelling 140,000 Jews. Same thing happened everywhere in the Middle East except Lebanon. Why is it that such tolerant people react to the creation of a Jewish state by expelling all of their Jews to that country?

yeah, it's pretty much indisputable that there was anti-semitic sentiments in many countries in the 2nd world war. And it's equally as unjustifiable as the way the Israeli's have treated the Palestinians. It's basically exactly the same thing.

However, the objection to the creation of an Israeli state in a readily existing country forced this issue. It never should have happened. Before that, the Jews WERE living alongside the Muslims, in some less Nazi influenced places relatively peacefully. If Israel hadn't been created, attitudes would have modified along with the modern world. Instead, there's just the continuing trail of Israeli aggression, constantly inspiring new hate.

kitakitsune Wrote:There is a big difference between this and what Israel did to Palestinians. Most Palestinians packed up and left not because a Jewish soldier threatened to kill their family but because there was a war in which the Arab world tried to destroy infant Israel and people fled. They never got to come back to their land because no country in the region nor an organized Palestinian group recognized Israel's right to existence.

All of the problems in the region stem from that simple fact. That the Arabs don't believe Israel has a right to exist. So there has been 60+ years of war.

That was my last post.

That's just not true. As mentioned above, even those that stayed within Israel weren't allowed back to their homes.

What the Israeli's did to the Palestinians is exactly what other countries had done to the Jews. No learning from the past, no humanity or compassion.

Sure, many Palestinians left because of fear of war. Many others left because of fear of being massacred by the Israelis. Many others were massacred or displaced directly by of Israelis. To claim they just left because of the war is naive, at best. That's like claiming that all Jews left the other arab states because they liked the idea of Zion. Sure, there were many Jews like that. But to deny the other side is absurd.

But even if we agree that at that time, both Israelis and other Arab states were doing the same thing to each other (and Palestinians just unfortunately happened to be in the way of Israel), as people here have repeatedly said, the Israeli settlers have been expelling and killing Palestinians to make way for their settlements ever since. It's no secret that they do and have done this. It's also no secret that they respond with brutal force to any show of dissent.

Honestly, i fail to see why Israel does have a "right" to exist. The creation of the state would be absolutely illegal nowadays. Any Jewish refugees should have been taken in by friendly nations, the way that any other refugees in the world are.

(EDIT: but Zigmonty made a good point about that actually so fine, taken back)

The fact is though, it does exist. So somehow, they're going to have to make it work. That's never going to happen when they keep voting in extreme right wing idiotic governments though.

And so the zionist finally decides to come out of his closet, all whilst forgetting to mention 2nd class citizenry of Jews within israel, that is, Non-European Jews. Your first finger pointing comment alone hinted it, but now you're a fully fledged zionist.

Jews are superior
Jews submit more academic papers than any other nation in the world
Jews invented more things than any other world
Arabs enjoy freedom and democracy in israel, just look at our Knesset! There are Arabs there!
I get my history from jewishvirtuallibrary and ignore all other criticisms of it
All Arabs wish for the death and destruction of the Jews

Would you please stop insulting our intelligence.

israel is, was, and always will be in the hearts and minds of Arabs a colony. It's a neo-colony in its own way, not in the globalized sense that many decolonized nations of Africa and the Arab world are today hid under a veil of western liberalism, ("we'll give you the right to be free you so long as you do this this and that"), but a true free form successful colonial experiment with its military counterpart that has thus far lasted solely because of Western intervention.

Again, you also can't be serious with your point on middle east economic growth? Just turn on the news now to see what has been going on. Why must you make me feel like an idiot pointing out the obvious? Are you oblivious to the fact that dictatorships are synonymous with poor economic growth? or are you just assuming that Arabs and Muslims alike are backward and are unable to sustain economic development or democracy.

Also to bodhisamaya, please don't call Palestine a waste land It isn't like the rest of the gulf. Her lands are fertile, beautiful. Its harvests, were the livelihood for all indigenous Palestinians. But as with any colony of any region in the world, foreigners/colonisers aren't so well acquainted with agricultural expertise of a particular land, the only language they speak in is military aggression, imperialist orientalist superiority and land grabs.

Salamtak ya saif Ana kunt saken bi urdon tanen sanii

liosama Wrote:israel is, was, and always will be in the hearts and minds of Arabs a colony.

And the middle east is, was and always will be a war-ridden hellhole. If you can't see why the attitudes in your post are every bit as much a part of the problem as right-wing Zionist wankers who see themselves as god's gift to the world... well... whatever.

I for one look forward to the day we wean ourselves off oil and can go back to not giving two shits about what goes on in middle east.

So how about those veils that women wear? For or against?

nest0r Wrote:So how about those veils that women wear? For or against?

Two thumbs up!

zigmonty Wrote:

liosama Wrote:israel is, was, and always will be in the hearts and minds of Arabs a colony.

And the middle east is, was and always will be a war-ridden hellhole. If you can't see why the attitudes in your post are every bit as much a part of the problem as right-wing Zionist wankers who see themselves as god's gift to the world... well... whatever.

The difference is that he has the right.

zigmonty Wrote:I for one look forward to the day we wean ourselves off oil and can go back to not giving two shits about what goes on in middle east.

Oh really? And I for one look forward to the day when WE get back on our feet and the world returns the way it used to be.

bodhisamaya Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:So how about those veils that women wear? For or against?

Two thumbs up!

So it's now about attacking Middle-Eastern people? Always talking about open minds and democracy even though you haven't got there! This shows the real you!

Enough said.

What are you talking about Undead? I don't ever remember defending democracy (mob-rule) or attacking Middle Eastern people. Abrahamic religions and their embracing of a war god beg for criticism in this age of information though.

BTW... Why is it that on every forum "enough said" is always followed by more commentary?

bodhisamaya Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:So how about those veils that women wear? For or against?

Two thumbs up!
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2889/...ancing.jpg

Win. You just saved this thread.

bodhisamaya Wrote:What are you talking about Undead? I don't ever remember defending democracy (mob-rule) or attacking Middle Eastern people. Abrahamic religions and their embracing of a war god beg for criticism in this age of information though.

BTW... Why is it that on every forum "enough said" is always followed by more commentary?

Come on! Bushido, Three kingdoms, Nanking, Kambodja, Sri Lanka, Korean wars... we've gone over this...

Had you been living in the 70s, would you be apathically quoting Marlon Brando from Apocalypse Now "If I only had ten divisions with such men, all our problems would go away", I wonder? And talk about everyone leaving Asia or something to that effect.

Jews and Muslims are fighting over a crappy piece of land that no one would care about if not for being a "Holy Land". It is a religious war. People do not fight wars in the name of Atheism or Buddhism. Why would they? No one has ever been beheaded while the attacker screams "Praise Science!"

bodhisamaya Wrote:People do not fight wars in the name of Atheism or Buddhism.

Buddhism is often described as peaceful and forgiving, but the Buddhist monks of Sri Lanka tell me otherwise... :S

What is happening in Sri Lanka is bizarre. It is akin to vegetarians operating a pit bull or cockfighting event. They practice an archaic form of Buddhism called Hinayana that has been denounced in every other part of the world.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Jews and Muslims are fighting over a crappy piece of land that no one would care about if not for being a "Holy Land". It is a religious war. People do not fight wars in the name of Atheism or Buddhism. Why would they? No one has ever been beheaded while the attacker screams "Praise Science!"

Have you ever seen Pol Pot pics of with skull mountains, too horrifying to post here. This "Holy Land" dispute looks like children quarrel when compared. I think you need to put things in perspectives, and not belittle and oversimplify some conflicts,

That was not done in the name or for the propagation of a religion.
Islam was founded by a military leader and Judaism worships a war god.

bodhisamaya Wrote:That was not done in the name or for the prorogation of a religion.
Islam was founded by a military leader and Judaism worships a war god.

Well you're wrong the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is a religious dispute, since both of them coexisted in that land before peacefully. And Islam was founded by a merchant, not a military leader, and he instructed his followers to fight back only after 10 years of persecutions/murders/torture from Meccans among others who thought the new God and his rules was bad for business.

And finally that you think religion(especially Abrahamic religion) is the only reason we have conflicts, it is naive and not true. Even after showing you worse conflicts, you seem reluctant to see that.

It is of course not the only reason there is war, but it causes wars that would not be fought otherwise. They would not cease completely, but there would be less war and suffering without religion. Muhammad led his people into two wars after God spoke to him. It was founded as a war religion regardless of what propaganda he fed his soldiers.

bodhisamaya Wrote:It is of course not the only reason there is war, but it causes wars that would not be fought otherwise. They would not cease completely, but there would be less war and suffering without religion. Muhammad led his people into two wars after God spoke to him. It was founded as a war religion regardless of what propaganda he fed his soldiers.

That's a very popular false idea, but no. WWII can speak for itself, and it had generally nothing to do with religion.

And yes, Muhammed eventually had to fight wars to protect the Muslims, the Muslims weren't the aggressors here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Opposition

"As the number of followers increased, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city, whose wealth rested upon the Kaaba, the focal point of Meccan religious life, which Muhammad threatened to overthrow. Muhammad’s denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba.[83] The powerful merchants tried to convince Muhammad to abandon his preaching by offering him admission into the inner circle of merchants, and establishing his position therein by an advantageous marriage. However, he refused.[83]

Tradition records at great length the persecution and ill-treatment of Muhammad and his followers.[10] Sumayyah bint Khabbab, a slave of a prominent Meccan leader Abu Jahl, is famous as the first martyr of Islam, having been killed with a spear by her master when she refused to give up her faith. Bilal, another Muslim slave, was tortured by Umayyah ibn Khalaf who placed a heavy rock on his chest to force his conversion.[86][87] Apart from insults, Muhammad was protected from physical harm as he belonged to the Banu Hashim clan"

As things went from bad to worse, the Muslim had to start to fight or face extinction.

Muhammad did not need to fight wars to protect his people. God was speaking to him and certainly He could have given the guy some insider negotiating advice. It is said God can hear the thoughts of men, so how much more of a negotiating advantage do you need?

Muslims control a huge land area in the Middle East. The only reason the West Bank is fought over is for religious purposes. Israel took the land illegally with military aggression for the same purpose (preemptive strikes are crap reasons) . I agree with Obama that Israel should give it back, but I also hope advances in reason among the people of this planet one day eliminate the need for religion.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Muhammad did not need to fight wars to protect his people. God was speaking to him and certainly He could have given the guy some insider negotiating advice. It is said God can hear the thoughts of men, so how much more of a negotiating advantage do you need?

Muslims control a huge land area in the Middle East. The only reason the West Bank is fought over is for religious purposes. Israel took the land illegally with military aggression for the same purpose (preemptive strikes are crap reasons) . I agree with Obama that Israel should give it back, but I also hope advances in reason among the people of this planet one day eliminate the need for religion.

Heh! Now you want to discuss religion as religion, not from historical perspective? Asking philosophical questions as to why Muhammed didn't command God to rain fire on his enemies, or something like that? I know how I would respond to this if this was a religious discussion, but I think you are leading us away from the focal discussion, and it wouldn't address your "Muhammed was warrior/aggressor blabla". Only lead us into Islam is true/vs not true religion, which should be reserved for another debate.

"Muslims control a huge land area in the Middle East. The only reason the West Bank is fought over is for religious purposes."

News flash, Israel isn't the only disputed land (whether constricted to Muslim or Non-Muslim countries). It's well known though, because of the aftermath of WWII and what happened to the Jews and a well known city through out history. The sides are divided in religious factions, yes, but this would still happen even if the Jews were sent to Iceland (perhaps in that case you would allude to the Norse holy land then, only God knows)

One thing you have to admit is that these Gods who speak to the Jews, Muslims and Christians all enjoy watching war as a spectator sport. They are all supposed to be the same God, but if that was true, that would make for even stranger intentions behind his conversations with humans. If you take the leap of faith and accept that God actually spoke to these people, why would it be assumed this was a loving God and not one that wagers on battles like a Filipino would on fighting roosters? Do only good deities have superpowers?