You're not going to be at the level of a professional translator in 6 months. I'm not a professional translator myself, but I have translated texts such as scientific articles. Translating texts about difficult subjects requires an academic level of understanding of the language, which is near impossible to attain in only 6 months. Then again I'm not sure what level you're at, if you're already semi-fluent I reckon it's more realistic, otherwise I'd double those 6 months.

I think it's important to think about how much you want to focus on improving your Japanese and how much you want to focus on improving your translation skills.

Obviously some of the things you can do will have an overlap and improve both, like practicing translating Japanese you read, or learning more specialised vocabulary for the type of material you want to translate.

However, some other skills you might need to practice, like improving your writting skills in your own language, will not help your Japanese at all and actually will take away from the amount of time you can use to study Japanese.

I think so far I've mostly focused on the learning Japanese part and only now that I've got JLPT1 out of the way do I feel that I can sacrifice some of my Japanese study time to work on other skills.

A big part of becoming a good translator has nothing at all to do with the source language (Japanese here). You need to know the style of the relevant kind of document in the destination language and be able to write in that style (with good grammar of course). If you will translate a press release, you should be able to write in the style of a press release. You can't just expect the style to come out by following the Japanese, as the style for documents is very different between different cultures.

Ex: When I was studying translation in university we had many business correspondence sample translation assignments. In order to get a good grade on it you basically had to throw away the first paragraph and the last few sentences, since they are meaningless fluff that is expected in Japanese style business emails but would be out of place in English.

@Kuma01
I think the specialization aspect of the question makes it possible within the time frame mentioned. If you only do financial texts then you reduce the outside vocabulary needs you would find in an all around translator. Probably this is what makes it more attainable.

@Jarvik7
That is a good point. I think that really makes it even more important to be only reading the type of text you want to work with. It's a kind of narrowing down process I think that makes it quite practical doing this.

@Everyone.
*You are right. It can't be done. But, if it could... ;p

I think what you are suggesting is not only unrealistic, it's dishonest and unprofessional.

You have to translate to be good at translating, but that's when you already have the level.

At a rate of 2-3 hours a day for 6 months, you're still only going to translate about 500 pages -- at the most. Is 500 pages enough to become a good translator? Is it enough to make you proficient in a language so you understand enough nuances to be able to translate confidently? Will you be able to take questions from your client when something seems odd or they disagree with what you wrote?

yeahhhh just remembered to take the test again... i win!!!

now for the next one...

hmm, guess i should read that style guide...

AlexandreC Wrote:I think what you are suggesting is not only unrealistic, it's dishonest and unprofessional.

You have to translate to be good at translating, but that's when you already have the level.

At a rate of 2-3 hours a day for 6 months, you're still only going to translate about 500 pages -- at the most. Is 500 pages enough to become a good translator? Is it enough to make you proficient in a language so you understand enough nuances to be able to translate confidently? Will you be able to take questions from your client when something seems odd or they disagree with what you wrote?

Lol, I take comical offense to 'dishonest and unprofessional'. Would a professional swimmer wait until he could perfectly perform the strokes outside of the water? Sometimes it's better to get your feet wet, don't you think.

I agree with your second statement, but I think people here are over estimating the job a bit. I can't really say with certainty that I am right as I am not a translator, but why pass up cash in the bank for your skills just because you feel your not worthy? If everyone just decided they didn't want to try something because they weren't perfect at it, the human race would just die off one by one. Self esteem, a healthy dose of self reflection and confidence get you much further than "I'm not going to try because I'm scared I might not be good enough - we are language learners, you know."

Anyway, comically offended means don't take me too seriously. I respect you have an opinion and I somewhat agree. Thank you for expressing it. It is valued.

Oh, by the way. You're all right! It can't be done. Never, ever...

A professional swimmer doesn't take money from a client in exchange for a product that is expected to be fit-for-purpose...

Keep in mind that you can personally get sued for $$ if your translation ends the client in hot water due to a mistake you made, unless you have a contract that says you take no responsibility for accuracy and you can defend it in court. Many full-time freelancers take out insurance for such contingencies. If a translator at my company makes a mistake and it doesn't get caught before submission, it costs our company tens of thousands of dollars for corrections (reprinting or putting stickers to cover up incorrect text). If it doesn't get caught until a client's customer gets hurt or causes damage to their product, it could mean millions.

Yes, translation is business. It's not like mowing your neighbor's lawn for a fiver.
Being non-freelance lets you avoid much of that responsibility, but you need to get hired in the first place.

@Jarvik7.

Nice reply. Certainly there are a number of legal obligations, but if you are dealing with small projects through various freelance websites this is fairly minimal. Personally, it would be quite a shock if someone who went through the regime I suggest in this thread could get in to a position where being sued were even a possibility. They would be a much better than myself that would be a certainty.

As always, I highly respect your opinion and know that it comes from a position of someone who has 'been there and done that' and, therefore, not to be taken lightly.

@All

Now, I think were this thread has gotten to most people is my own definition of 'professional'. One would think I mean some guy working in a company making the big bucks translating who knows what to whatever. This perhaps is not the case under my definition. I envision someone translating small time news reports, emails, small documents. This would be the limit of my personal interest and I think the limit of most people's ability without proper training or much more than the suggested time length.

Overall, I judge a person with reasonable Japanese, say N3, to give us a point of reference, able and then some to achieve this goal. This, of course, is a rather large claim and one not easily believed by the majority of the people who have posted here.

It is often interesting to me that we doubt ourselves and others' ability so much. Many-a-time, I have watched as people sit back and doubt themselves and others in the rather simplistic field of their own language learning. It is a condition of the heart that needs mending in many of us, I think. We are often so prone to doubting that we forget that trying was what got us to where we are today - be that a good thing or bad.

Why are we this way? It is perhaps one of the saddest things in today's world that with so many opportunities available to us in every direction that we, as the current ruling generation, fail to be all we can be.

My hope is that we will all learn from this discussion. Doubt, overwhelming fear and lack of 'challenge' ability are the world's ball and chain. We must rise up, my fellow learners, and fight the tyranny of weak hearts and feeble minds. This world is ours, so seize the day, and fear not as we spit in the eye of fight for today... I will write a whole load of poo.

Ok, like 20% serious now and you know a swimmer takes money to provide a product to his sponsors, which is very much expected to fit a certain purpose... Gosh, I feel like taking a dip after writing all that.

Cranks Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:I think what you are suggesting is not only unrealistic, it's dishonest and unprofessional.

You have to translate to be good at translating, but that's when you already have the level.

At a rate of 2-3 hours a day for 6 months, you're still only going to translate about 500 pages -- at the most. Is 500 pages enough to become a good translator? Is it enough to make you proficient in a language so you understand enough nuances to be able to translate confidently? Will you be able to take questions from your client when something seems odd or they disagree with what you wrote?

Lol, I take comical offense to 'dishonest and unprofessional'. Would a professional swimmer wait until he could perfectly perform the strokes outside of the water? Sometimes it's better to get your feet wet, don't you think.

I agree with your second statement, but I think people here are over estimating the job a bit. I can't really say with certainty that I am right as I am not a translator, but why pass up cash in the bank for your skills just because you feel your not worthy? If everyone just decided they didn't want to try something because they weren't perfect at it, the human race would just die off one by one. Self esteem, a healthy dose of self reflection and confidence get you much further than "I'm not going to try because I'm scared I might not be good enough - we are language learners, you know."

Anyway, comically offended means don't take me too seriously. I respect you have an opinion and I somewhat agree. Thank you for expressing it. It is valued.

I've been employed by the governement as a translator for 10 years, did freelance for just as long and I'm a certified translator in Canada. I've seen so many crappy jobs done by people purporting to be translators when the client was not in a position to tell otherwise. Hence the "dishonest and unprofessional" remark.

It's not dishonest to want to try and improve your skills, but implying that you'll be a qualified translator in 6 months is. You first need to master the language and only then can you seriously consider asking for money for translation.

When I began studying Japanese, I set a very ambitious goal of speaking it well enough within 5 years to be able to translate from it. I didn't mean that I wanted to translate professionally, but just that I wanted a high level of competency. I didn't expect that to necessarily be possible either, it was just a objective to motivate myself. It's been almost 3 years now. While I do fairly well in real life situations, I've still got a long ways to go before I can translate anything serious.

Cranks Wrote:Now, I think were this thread has gotten to most people is my own definition of 'professional'. One would think I mean some guy working in a company making the big bucks translating who knows what to whatever. This perhaps is not the case under my definition. I envision someone translating small time news reports, emails, small documents. This would be the limit of my personal interest and I think the limit of most people's ability without proper training or much more than the suggested time length.

Overall, I judge a person with reasonable Japanese, say N3, to give us a point of reference, able and then some to achieve this goal. This, of course, is a rather large claim and one not easily believed by the majority of the people who have posted here.

It is often interesting to me that we doubt ourselves and others' ability so much. Many-a-time, I have watched as people sit back and doubt themselves and others in the rather simplistic field of their own language learning. It is a condition of the heart that needs mending in many of us, I think. We are often so prone to doubting that we forget that trying was what got us to where we are today - be that a good thing or bad.

Why are we this way? It is perhaps one of the saddest things in today's world that with so many opportunities available to us in every direction that we, as the current ruling generation, fail to be all we can be.

My hope is that we will all learn from this discussion. Doubt, overwhelming fear and lack of 'challenge' ability are the world's ball and chain. We must rise up, my fellow learners, and fight the tyranny of weak hearts and feeble minds. This world is ours, so seize the day, and fear not as we spit in the eye of fight for today... I will write a whole load of poo.

Are you seriously getting philosophical about overestimating your own Japanese ability and underestimating the entire field of translation? The fact that your daily time estimate has doubled, you've attempted to redefine the word professional, and the fundamental mistakes you made in your "how-to" thread lead me to believe that you don't really have any idea what it takes. The overriding tone of the thread has little to do with self-esteem, and everything to do with realism.

If this isn't completely hypothetical and you're actually going to attempt it, then come back in six months and prove us wrong. I'd be impressed if you could pass N1 within that timeframe, let alone find somebody to put food on your table for translating their e-mails. You might find reading a book on the topic useful, and there's also a good Google group called Honyaku.

Lol, no one said you can't change the rules half way. I rarely play fair.

"the fundamental mistakes you made in your "how-to" thread" is a bit off the cuff don't you think, Javizy? We all contribute in our own way and considering the lack of any real "how to" content from a lot of people here, it makes me wonder if people do, in fact, actually think what they do through deeply (lol, I don't). <-- I said "a lot", not all.

Otherwise, you are right. Perhaps, it can't be done, but who 'actually' cares about it? I'd rather hear your technique for doing it. It's a bit fail to hide behind 'realism' and argue your point with a digital personality on the internet. If you could actually respect the question in its original form and try to answer then maybe that would make this thread worthwhile for me.

You see, the thing is, of everyone who posted here, you actually could answer. Hence, I'm a bit disappointed, really. I respect the tone of your posts and your clear intentions to say, "I've done this and it just can't be done, sorry.", but, with imagination, I honestly feel that you could do it.

People like you, who actually have experience, can help people to make massive gains. Does that mean you have to help everyone? Definitely not, but if you wanted to you could, yeah.

I may harp on philosophically and write random BS on the internet, but I don't really have a gripe with you or anyone. This being the internet, I don't really take anything said here as faintly even close to what a person would say in real life. Hence, I see the helpful, kind person you are and respect that.

"If you could actually respect the question in its original form and try to answer then maybe that would make this thread worthwhile for me."

Sorry, I mean something like a process or a training regime. The book and groups you have recommended are really helpful. (For an example of such a process, hit page 3.) It doesn't have to be a super hardcore one and doesn't even have to get anyone to the stage I suggest, but a way forward into the light is needed.

Hmmmm... considering my own advice, maybe I am taking people too much by their internet personalities. I think my prose on how people should be less doubting comes from daily exposure to people putting up massive walls of doubt in front of others and themselves on forums and in life. I pretty much here, "I can't do it." five times per week in my profession, which is incredibly sad. I also hear, "I'm not good enough." a lot as well. It's a sad thing to see people who are incredibly successful in their lives (and I mean really, really, successful) say, "I can't speak [insert language here] well." when they say it in near perfect English or Japanese. I always feel like somewhere a fairy has died when I hear it and it makes me sad for people sometimes. My secret hope is that the world will learn confidence someday, but lack of personal faith has been the human condition for centuries and is unlikely to change anytime soon. Sorry for unloading it on you guys a bit last night.

AlexandreC Wrote:

Cranks Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:I think what you are suggesting is not only unrealistic, it's dishonest and unprofessional.

You have to translate to be good at translating, but that's when you already have the level.

At a rate of 2-3 hours a day for 6 months, you're still only going to translate about 500 pages -- at the most. Is 500 pages enough to become a good translator? Is it enough to make you proficient in a language so you understand enough nuances to be able to translate confidently? Will you be able to take questions from your client when something seems odd or they disagree with what you wrote?

Lol, I take comical offense to 'dishonest and unprofessional'. Would a professional swimmer wait until he could perfectly perform the strokes outside of the water? Sometimes it's better to get your feet wet, don't you think.

I agree with your second statement, but I think people here are over estimating the job a bit. I can't really say with certainty that I am right as I am not a translator, but why pass up cash in the bank for your skills just because you feel your not worthy? If everyone just decided they didn't want to try something because they weren't perfect at it, the human race would just die off one by one. Self esteem, a healthy dose of self reflection and confidence get you much further than "I'm not going to try because I'm scared I might not be good enough - we are language learners, you know."

Anyway, comically offended means don't take me too seriously. I respect you have an opinion and I somewhat agree. Thank you for expressing it. It is valued.

I've been employed by the governement as a translator for 10 years, did freelance for just as long and I'm a certified translator in Canada. I've seen so many crappy jobs done by people purporting to be translators when the client was not in a position to tell otherwise. Hence the "dishonest and unprofessional" remark.

It's not dishonest to want to try and improve your skills, but implying that you'll be a qualified translator in 6 months is. You first need to master the language and only then can you seriously consider asking for money for translation.

When I began studying Japanese, I set a very ambitious goal of speaking it well enough within 5 years to be able to translate from it. I didn't mean that I wanted to translate professionally, but just that I wanted a high level of competency. I didn't expect that to necessarily be possible either, it was just a objective to motivate myself. It's been almost 3 years now. While I do fairly well in real life situations, I've still got a long ways to go before I can translate anything serious.

I wasn't going to reply to this one out of respect for the tone of your post, but I wanted to say one thing, "Great job." Seriously, you've really achieved something good and I want to say you did well. Japanese isn't hard or easy really, but you've stayed consistent and taken the bull by the horns on a daily (?) basis to get where you want to be. I have a lot of respect for that.

Cranks Wrote:I think my prose on how people should be less doubting comes from daily exposure to people putting up massive walls of doubt in front of others and themselves on forums and in life. I pretty much here, "I can't do it." five times per week in my profession, which is incredibly sad. I also hear, "I'm not good enough." a lot as well. It's a sad thing to see people who are incredibly successful in their lives (and I mean really, really, successful) say, "I can't speak [insert language here] well." when they say it in near perfect English or Japanese. I always feel like somewhere a fairy has died when I hear it and it makes me sad for people sometimes. My secret hope is that the world will learn confidence someday, but lack of personal faith has been the human condition for centuries and is unlikely to change anytime soon.

I would say there is an important difference between being confident/positive and being unrealistic. Being unrealistic might give motivation at first but there is a vicious rebound when the goal inevitably fails to be met.

Japanese-English translation requires at least near-native Japanese comprehension, and excellent writing skills in English. Therefore, I think N3 is quite a low goalpost to be setting yourself, even if it is just the odd bit of simple translation that you do. At that level of comprehension, anything more taxing than very simple, straightforward content will be a struggle in terms of efficiency (how much you can output per unit time), in addition to time spent verifying that what you output is actually correct.

If I wanted a high quality translation job done, and I had some non-trivial content that needed translating, then I wouldn't accept someone who didn't have at least native-level comprehension (N1). Whether they can write well in their own native language is another question, but at least you can be confident in their Japanese comprehension ability.

That said, no-one is stopping you from doing what you think is best. Early experience might indeed be helpful -- it's a matter of how early.

Guoguodi Wrote:If I wanted a high quality translation job done, and I had some non-trivial content that needed translating, then I wouldn't accept someone who didn't have at least native-level comprehension (N1).

I think N1 is *far* from native-level comprehension.

The tone of my post does seem a bit jerky in hindsight. When I mentioned the mistakes, I wasn't criticising your thread itself. I just remember seeing a strange breakdown of 行っといて. If you don't know ～とく, then you don't know it, but if you want to be a good translator you need to realise that and find out what it does mean. Being too confident and assuming too much can lead to disaster.

I wasn't being sarcastic with the "prove us wrong" comment either. I'd be interested to see how far you get. You wouldn't get your JLPT results until January-February, so you'd have more than six months anyway There's another book coming out in September as well.

I think one thing that would really help is finding a mentor. One of the reasons I doubt this so much is because you'll be trying to translate while you're learning, so all the mistakes you make as part of the learning process will be coming out in your translations. Having someone to provide feedback on some of your work will make sure less of those mistakes remain when it starts to matter.

Yes, having a mentor is a must.

I took a 2 year translation program at university along with my degree. After I graduated, my former professor hired me to be a draft translator for her. Normally that kind of relationship is unpaid since she was mentoring me, but I still got a pretty good rate (like 2.5 what mygengo pays).

Doing volunteer work, solo translation practice, or subtitling isn't the same as you get zero feedback of any value.

I agree with the need for a mentor. You need people you trust who can look over your work and suggest ways to improve. That's one advantage of working in a firm and having your work revised. If you go straight to freelance, you need to pay someone to revise your work.

A new book about Japanese translation has just been published.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415486...130_snp_dp

That's the one I mentioned in my last post. It's not out until September in the UK though. I doubt I'll have time to read it until then anyway. There's another one I saw on amazon.jp and the book depository. Pretty expensive, but not in comparison to a lesson at a college or something if it turns out to be useful.