My question concerns the reading of the kanji. I am currently using Denshi Jisho at http://www.jisho.org as a reference. From the start, I was under the impression that the readings for a given kanji exemplified all possible readings that kanji. However in the course of my studies I'm finding that not to be the case.

Examples:

昨夜　ゆうべ　last night
Reading for 昨: サ
Readings for 夜: ヤ、よ、よる

下手　へた　 unskilled
Readings for 下: お.りる、 お.ろす、 くだ.さる、 くだ.す、 -くだ.す、 くだ.り、 くだ.る、 さ.がる、 さ.げる、 した、 しも、 もと、カ、 ゲ
Readings for 手: た-、 て、 て-、 -て、シュ、 ズ

What I would like to know is:
Is the reference I am using wrong and the readings I have listed incorrect?
Or is this just another example of the irregularities inherent in all languages?
Am I wrong about the usage of readings?
Or is it something else entirely?

FYI
I completed RTK 1, however I am not following RTK 2.

Special readings! Surprise!

This is why you should study vocabulary based around a particular kanji you are trying to learn instead of just studying the actual kanji itself.

ゆうべ is usually written as 夕べ. But these are ateji; readings assigned to compounds.

I think it's better to learn readings from actual words that you've seen.
Otherwise, if you've never seen a kanji used in a word, there's no reason
to memorize any readings for it.

But, yes, there are irregularities.
There are words that use kanji readings which are irregular.

In those cases, you should just memorize the word itself.

By the way, 下 is actually a funny kanji.
It has so many readings.

した　（下＝below)
げ （下水=sewage)
しも （下妻、しもつま）
くだ　（下さい、please)
へ （下手、unskillful)
もと (足下、footstep)
さ（下がる、lower, decrease, go down)
お　(下りる, to come down）
か　(下記、the following, as in "the following paragraph")

Are there any other readings?

Heh, I bet we could make a paragraph using all of the words
above.... :-p

[Katsuo]

Here is a list of ateji (government-approved assigned readings).

By the way, Denshi Jisho, like many others, uses KANJIDIC as its source of data.

KANJIDIC lists many readings including obscure ones, i.e. it goes for completeness. Learning all the readings in KANJIDIC would be a tremendous task and much of the knowledge wouldn't be very useful.

If you are learning readings for kanji it is better to refer to those on the Joyo kanji list. These kanji and readings are the ones taught in Japanese schools and they focus on the more useful readings. The joyo kanji includes a supplement of ateji (assigned readings) e.g. 大人 (おとな) (see the first link).

Lists of the Joyo kanji along with their joyo-approved readings can be found in various places (textbooks, websites, apps, etc). E.g. Wikipedia. Another useful source is Kanjijiten (all in Japanese) which specifies when various readings are taught.

Note that the Joyo kanji list was updated last year, so you will find references to both the older (1,945 characters) and newer (2,136 characters) lists. Coscom has a useful page outlining the changes.

Katsuo Wrote:Here is a list of ateji (government-approved assigned readings).

Note: 昨夜 not on list. Am I missing something? This entry has (P) in EDICT and it's not on the government list?

昨夜 read as ゆうべ is not a joyo-approved ateji. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always read that as さくや -- to me, ゆうべ is written 夕べ.

Hashiriya Wrote:Special readings! Surprise!

This is why you should study vocabulary based around a particular kanji you are trying to learn instead of just studying the actual kanji itself.

This is my essential study method.
I get a new word and study it.
I add the readings for that kanji to my home-made RTK chart.
I list that new word beside its corresponding kanji as an example of that reading.
I leave the other readings for that kanji alone until I learn a word that uses it.
This is why the reading for 昨夜 stood out to me.

My goal is to have at least one example word for all the readings. I realize that this is what RTK 2 essentially is, however, RTK 2 has vocabulary that is so far over my head I get dizzy just thinking about it. I also see no point in learning the onyomi and kunyomi reading separately, it makes for twice as much work. Besides, if I make that chart myself, I'm more likely to remember it. What I am studying is vocabulary. I'm just keeping track of the readings as a point of reference.

chamcham Wrote:I think it's better to learn readings from actual words that you've seen.
Otherwise, if you've never seen a kanji used in a word, there's no reason
to memorize any readings for it.

But, yes, there are irregularities.
There are words that use kanji readings which are irregular.

In those cases, you should just memorize the word itself.

By the way, 下 is actually a funny kanji.
It has so many readings.

した　（下＝below)
げ （下水=sewage)
しも （下妻、しもつま）
くだ　（下さい、please)
へ （下手、unskillful)
もと (足下、footstep)
さ（下がる、lower, decrease, go down)
お　(下りる, to come down）
か　(下記、the following, as in "the following paragraph")

Are there any other readings?

Heh, I bet we could make a paragraph using all of the words
above.... :-p

You have no idea. When I saw how many readings there where for 下, it shook my already wavering resolve. After I closed the book on RTK 2, that was the kanji that made me give up attempting to memorize readings. My improvised vocabulary method is working so far.

Katsuo Wrote:Here is a list of ateji (government-approved assigned readings).

By the way, Denshi Jisho, like many others, uses KANJIDIC as its source of data.

KANJIDIC lists many readings including obscure ones, i.e. it goes for completeness. Learning all the readings in KANJIDIC would be a tremendous task and much of the knowledge wouldn't be very useful.

If you are learning readings for kanji it is better to refer to those on the Joyo kanji list. These kanji and readings are the ones taught in Japanese schools and they focus on the more useful readings. The joyo kanji includes a supplement of ateji (assigned readings) e.g. 大人 (おとな) (see the first link).

Lists of the Joyo kanji along with their joyo-approved readings can be found in various places (textbooks, websites, apps, etc). E.g. Wikipedia. Another useful source is Kanjijiten (all in Japanese) which specifies when various readings are taught.

Note that the Joyo kanji list was updated last year, so you will find references to both the older (1,945 characters) and newer (2,136 characters) lists. Coscom has a useful page outlining the changes.

This is good information.
Thank you!

chamcham Wrote:I think it's better to learn readings from actual words that you've seen.
Otherwise, if you've never seen a kanji used in a word, there's no reason
to memorize any readings for it.

But, yes, there are irregularities.
There are words that use kanji readings which are irregular.

In those cases, you should just memorize the word itself.

By the way, 下 is actually a funny kanji.
It has so many readings.

へ （下手、unskillful)

へ is not actually a reading of the kanji; you can't split the ateji up into individual readings.

Quote:Are there any other readings?

Kanjigen gives ひくい; I've never seen that used and their only example is from a kanbun text.