dtcamero Wrote:I think it's funny how people that talk the most stuff are all so up to date on what Khatz is up to, what his banners say etc... I have to imagine that means that those guys are secretly scouring his blog in the middle of the night, like some kind of guilty pleasure... reading all of his PD articles.

*facepalm*

Or, maybe it's because when you criticize something you have the responsibility to know what you're talking about to some extent. Would you rather people criticize Silverspoon without knowing anything about it?

@dtcamero

Yeah, I guess we could be the immature kids you made an analogy with, or like Tzadeck said, if you're going to critique something like a reasonable person, you'll have to be a little up to date. I do think Khatzumoto is cute, though. You think he likes me?

Although you'll notice I've referred to the refund policy as ‘the one Thora describes’ because I can't be arsed to read about it myself, and I trust Thora's perspective and judgment, having witnessed Thora wade into many a fray with sound advice and a mature perspective. (Plus I figured that after 5 pages, someone would've said ‘hey, you get the refund sooner than 18 months’, etc. if Thora was wrong and the object of focus was nonexistent.)

oh ya you sound super knowledgable about it... like if AJATT were a horse and you were a cowboy, you'd be all like "psshh, ya I know how to ride this horse all night, bareback even..."

kendo99 Wrote:its funny. I always leave khatzumoto's blog inspired, motivated or with a great new idea. I always leave the RevTK forums irritated, annoyed or frustrated at all the vitriol that gets spewed around by a small handful of people who monopolize the discussions. People who are so discouraging if you post about a new method you are having success with, or anything else that's currently out of favor here at these forums, and yet some of you want to talk about this place as if its 18th Century Paris or something: the height of rational discussion and scientific enlightenment. What I really wonder, though, is when those same people ever get around to studying any Japanese?

I now understand why AJATT doesn't have a free-access forum.

Well, my opinion on silverspoon: It's a service for those that are either very lazy or very busy to search up Japanese media and would feel "safer" if they had someone telling them what to do; i.e., holding their hand through the process of Japanese acquisition. I think most people don't need this kind of service, but those few folks that do can be greatly benefited with it.

Oh, and I LOVE how he uses quotes from this forum in his advertisements:
"I'm sick of hearing about Khatzumoto and AJATT..."
"I think AJATT is just a huge conspiracy to upset people..."

ROFLOL, if life gives you lemons make lemonade! xD

dtcamero Wrote:But officially it's all because of other peoples' best interests that we're looking out for... The little guy, naïve language learner that he is... That's what we're concerned about... Uh huh riiiiiight heh

dtcamero - This sentiment came up in another thread and I'm curious about it. Would you mind explaining to me what you mean by it? Why are you so certain it cannot be other people's interests? If it's not other people's interests, what you do think the purpose or motivation actually is?

Hypothetical: Let's say I were to make a spreadsheet of the payment and refund policies of a large number of online learning sites in Japan and it turned out Silverspoon's policy was a huge outlier and its terms were not in your favour. It also didn't include things required under Japanese law.* If you were thinking about buying Silverspoon, would you be interested in that information? Also, if you wanted Silverspoon, would you pay $1000 refundable only in 18 months?

It's a serious request. btw. (*according to a policy I looked at.)

Oh...and your writing style is very Khatzian. [snip] ;p

well lets not make a big deal about this, i'm just saying that it seems like the guys getting all worked up over AJATT are really using this forum to "pray away the gay," and are secretly super hot-for-khatz... that's all.

well, maybe not you thora, *wink* ;P

dtcamero Wrote:well lets not make a big deal about this, i'm just saying that it seems like the guys getting all worked up here are actually using this forum to "pray away the gay," and are secretly super hot-for-khatz... that's all.

well, maybe not you thora, *wink* ;P

I just think the critics of Silverspoon are looking out for the best interests of language learners. The only one getting worked up seems to be you, considering everyone else is providing reasonable critiques, and you're just claiming they all secretly praise Khatz but need to hate on something.

Then again, I haven't been following all of these threads regarding Silverspoon. You do seem like you are probably someone who is paying for the service, so I hope you get what you paid for.

Well, looks like another insult for AJATT critics: anonymous hypocrite! (almost an oxymoron)

[spelling]

Neoglitch17 Wrote:Well, my opinion on silverspoon: It's a service for those that are either very lazy or very busy to search up Japanese media and would feel "safer" if they had someone telling them what to do; i.e., holding their hand through the process of Japanese acquisition. I think most people don't need this kind of service, but those few folks that do can be greatly benefited with it.

Yeh this is how I see it. For me it's not worth it, but I can see why other people would sign up.

It's like if James Hesig started advertising a service, where we would help you finish Remembering the Kanji in one month; $600 or your money back. Of course most people won't need it as they can study it on their own, but I could see the value in it if you were a business man about to go to Japan in 1 months time..or if you'd started and given up RtK 3 times already..or if you simply don't enjoy self-study, and are one of those people that needs the support and structure of a planned environment (the type who loves language classes).

I think these threads have become so heated and confused, as it's actually 3 seperate issues being discussed:
1) Is silverspoon worth it.
2) Does AJATT actually work.
3) Can Khatz be trusted (will he give refunds etc)

Maybe split into 3 threads?

Thora Wrote:hypocrit

e

is that khatzian enough for ya? fyi I dont give him any money...his useful stuff is free.

Thora Wrote:Well, looks like another insult for AJATT critics: anonymous hypocrit! (almost an oxymoron)

I just found a new one too! Making creepy insinuations about AJATT critics' sexuality.

At any rate, feel free to share that spreadsheet and references about that law, sounds like something that could give potential victims perspective.

gosh i'm getting a very closeted vibe from this thread... it's cool man, I dont mean it like a pejorative. come on its 2011 you guys can get married and join the army and everything now...

dtcamero Wrote:gosh i'm getting a very closeted vibe from this thread... it's cool man, I dont mean it like a pejorative. come on its 2011 you guys can get married and join the army and everything now...

Why are you antagonizing people? As a wise man named dtcamero once said, "Well let's not make a big deal about this." And why are you being a grammar Nazi when you don't even use proper capitalizing or punctuation?

dtcamero Wrote:gosh i'm getting a very closeted vibe from this thread... it's cool man, I dont mean it like a pejorative. come on its 2011 you guys can get married and join the army and everything now...

I actually find these sexuality references quite offensive.

Please desist or you will be reported and banned.

okay, sorry for the offense. I have gay friends and meant no disrespect.

@TheVinster, my antagonism is a reflection of the sarcastic and at times sharply humorous tone of this and other threads. I happen to think AJATT is a good thing overall for language learning, and have proceeded in a tone similar to others on this forum, which I have been reading for a good 2 years now.

so now that I have actually said something sincere I feel like I just gave fresh meat to wolves. let the ad hominems commence...

dtcamero Wrote:okay, sorry for the offense. I have gay friends and meant no disrespect.

You acknowledge you were being offensive, and then claim you didn't mean it. This is going well.

I know it's hard to believe, Vinster, but we're all humans. We can acknowledge that we can make a mistake, and that we didn't have harmful intentions.

Although I'm not sure if that's true for dtcamero, I'm just thinking aloud...

dtcamero Wrote:e

thx - fixed.

I'm guessing you're young and perhaps don't understand the difference b/w sarcasm/humour and offensive content. You need to sort that out.

Making juvenile and offensive comments about sexuality to get back at AJATT critics because you like AJATT not only makes you look like an immature moron, it reinforces a view of Khatzians as young fanatical followers who can't be trusted make their own good decisions. I know you don't want to promote that image. So, my dear, go and be a good representative.

Mom Thora ;p

Neoglitch17 Wrote:I now understand why AJATT doesn't have a free-access forum.

Well, my opinion on silverspoon: [as advertised]

Oh, and I LOVE how he uses quotes from this forum in his advertisements:
"I'm sick of hearing about Khatzumoto and AJATT..."
"I think AJATT is just a huge conspiracy to upset people..."

ROFLOL, if life gives you lemons make lemonade! xD

We were talking about the banner in another thread:

Thora Wrote:AJATT ... tries to diffuse negative comments with its tired "reclaim the criticism" marketing gimmick. (btw, this gimmick also helps foster the juvenile Us vs Haters thing.)

Amset Wrote:He is making a joke, to show that he knows how over-the-top his fluency claims sound and to make critics sound irrational. He puts some in there that sound stupid out of context, and the idea is that it makes all the criticism just sound like "hate". It excuses him from actually having to respond to criticism, because by putting it there he is trying to imply it is so unfounded he doesn't need to respond.
There, you can put that in the banner Khatz. Make sure you use ellipses to make it "a joke...over-the-top fluency claims...unfounded" tongue.

Nest0r Wrote:Yeah it's so funny and self-deprecating, it makes me like Khatzumoto and want to pay him for stuff. ;p It's catchy too, it's so clever I want to talk about it to other people, and then they'll see it and think it's clever and funny and want to buy his stuff. ^_^

[edit: Looks like you're behaving as expected.]
Also, I notice that you've been registered here a year and this is your first post. I guess you must feel quite strongly about this issue? Welcome, btw. :-)

Thora Wrote:Making juvenile and offensive comments about sexuality to get back at AJATT critics because you like AJATT not only makes you look like an immature moron, it reinforces a view of Khatzians as young fanatical followers who can't be trusted make their own good decisions. I know you don't want to promote that image. So, my dear, go and be a good representative.

This is your own view about people who like AJATT. i don't expect any one person from RTK to represent who i am, or RTK as a whole, so why should 1 random idiot represent "Khatzians". That's just silly. (would you even assent to there being some stereotypical "RTKian" that anyone could represent?) And it's quite condescending, just like the idea that people who buy Khatz's stuff are poor naive innocent souls who can't be trusted to make their own decisions in the 1st place. I assumed that was the point the guy was trying to make, but apparently not, so i'll make it instead. (again).

As are your (or collective "your" in-group's) thoughts about the banner. It's not the Truth that everybody must dislike it. Yknow, some people might actually find it funny. Or are people only supposed to have a sense of humour when reading your posts?

i did send you an email btw, yesterday, in case you missed my post before.

TheVinster Wrote:

dtcamero Wrote:well lets not make a big deal about this, i'm just saying that it seems like the guys getting all worked up here are actually using this forum to "pray away the gay," and are secretly super hot-for-khatz... that's all.

well, maybe not you thora, *wink* ;P

I just think the critics of Silverspoon are looking out for the best interests of language learners. The only one getting worked up seems to be you, considering everyone else is providing reasonable critiques, and you're just claiming they all secretly praise Khatz but need to hate on something.

Then again, I haven't been following all of these threads regarding Silverspoon. You do seem like you are probably someone who is paying for the service, so I hope you get what you paid for.

They seem to be criticizing a system that they are skeptic about or just don't know enough about. I seriously doubt that it is not about the best interests of language learners.

There is an importance to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of any system. This also includes including that certain things are just unknown. This informs people.

Some of the comments seem centered around a misunderstand of language learning. Such as criticism about those who use the system as being "very lazy or very busy to search up Japanese media." This ignore that fact that most Japanese media is in Japanese. That is Japanese doesn't use English letters or words.

A person defends something doesn't mean that they are using a particular service or product. They could be using the exact same rational used by those criticizing it. It is the individuals choice of the method they want to learn a language. However, the most important things is that they are actually spending time learning that language.

Aphasiac this doesn't apply to you...
such sensitive flowers these ajatt critics are... their delicate sensibilities so easily bruised. you really would think it were 18th-century paris here from the present tenor of discussion.

i think this mood is the result of a certain pattern that i've seen played out time and time again that is currently being deviated from. that pattern involves people migrating over to this forum from ajatt, thinking they will find an encouraging atmosphere and ernest language learners engaged in civilized discussion, similar to the environment at ajatt. (yes i said it) they post something sincere and are immediately savaged for it... not by everyone but usually the higher posters.

this attitude is generally not reciprocated however as the victims often just leave the forum. ice cream sometimes provides a lonely counterpoint and is granted a modicum of respect because she doesn't descend to the lowest levels shown...however she soon gets drowned out by all those opposing.

i dont mind descending however because i like sharp humor and dont get emotional about it... and i reciprocated in exactly the tone i've seen offered to sincere ajatt migrants... and wow, people are upset. amazing how that works.

i also, sincerely, find it puzzling that people here who don't think his method is valid/efficient whatever spend so much time and energy discussing him and every nook and cranny of the wildest conspiracy theories as if khatz were some kind of bildersberg/dick cheney/freenmason amalgam. on another level however it's pretty encouraging because with all that energy you're pouring into ajatt, i'm sure you'll become fluent in no time ;D

Sone of us already are fluent

Yes @dtcamero, these wicked RevTK forums forced you into making creepy jokes that you now must desperately justify with your own warped fairy tale spin, once again insulting everyone who criticizes AJATT and making sweeping generalizations about the forum. You'll forgive me if I don't follow your thought process any further than that.

there we go, now you see when jarvik makes his snarky comment at least he has the decency to give me a chuckle... (i'm looking at you here nestor)