Beginnings...
I found Khatz' material about half way in to my first year of Japanese. I have to say "thank you" to him for giving me some excellent ideas and keeping me going through some hard times.

My Take on Things
I guess my take on AJATT is that it's an idea not a method. I go to Khatz for motivation and ideas on how to keep doing Japanese and how to do my studies. Sometimes what he says has value, other times, it's crap. Either way, my consistent enjoyment of his website has given me some of the best ideas I've ever had.

ta12121 Wrote:So 1.5-2 years to become fluent, doesn't sound so off.

It doesn't sound so off to you because you're familiar with efficient study methods, I mean, you're on a forum that is all about SRS and mnemonics for crying out loud. For most people fluency in anything less than a decade (if you are talented and lucky), this is a pipe dream and their eyes start to glaze over when you explain concepts like the SRS, using imaginative memory, etc..

So, of course, for you, and for most people on this forum a service that AJATT is offering is completely useless. But it has it's niche.

There should be a spot opening up soon... Just requested a refund.

zer0range Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:So 1.5-2 years to become fluent, doesn't sound so off.

It doesn't sound so off to you because you're familiar with efficient study methods, I mean, you're on a forum that is all about SRS and mnemonics for crying out loud. For most people fluency in anything less than a decade (if you are talented and lucky), this is a pipe dream and their eyes start to glaze over when you explain concepts like the SRS, using imaginative memory, etc..

So, of course, for you, and for most people on this forum a service that AJATT is offering is completely useless. But it has it's niche.

I wouldn't say I'm familiar with efficiency study methods. I just stuck with it. I still believe that it will probably take me 3-5 years for my goals of fluency. But only time well tell, I just need to keep going and keep learning. Eventually I'll be at my goals, it's just a matter of putting in the time

I signed up for it.
Do I get $2 of value out of it every day? No. I do not. Even so, I was thinking about not unsubscribing for the 2nd month.

General
You do one thing. Then you take a break. Sometimes you start with taking a break. Then you do the next thing. Then you take a longer break. The things you are asked to do: "Click a video link" (takes maybe 5 seconds), "sign up for Surusu" (takes maybe 1 minute), "Shadow for 2 minutes" - the breaks are all 10 minutes or longer.

Immersion.
Google NonStopTube. I abbreviate this NST. Type in something Japanese. Listen to it while you do other things at your computer. I had never heard this advice before, but that alone isn't worth $60. Khatz gives three "search terms" for you each day. These are in Japanese so they won't be obvious to you (they weren't obvious to me). My favorite term so far was yesterday: 実況プレイ which means video game talkthrough/walkthrough/playthrough.

He has you do shadowing each day for 2 minutes. The material to be shadowed is accessed by a NST link. I never tried shadowing before. I think it can help you hear words you wouldn't normally. It can't help you understand them. I don't think it improves your listening ability permanently - you just listen harder because you must repeat the words.

Gear
I think, even at day 15, we're still getting started with immersion. I don't own an MP3 player. I bought "iPad Shuffle" ($50) at Khatz' suggestion (he actually suggests it as a 2nd MP3 player). I also bought "Pillow Speaker" ($20) on a suggestion. Haven't really used either yet- I need to work them into my daily routine. I own a NDS + R4 which can be used easily as an MP3 player but it is cumbersome to carry.

A screen config program called WinSplit Revolution (free)
A podcast downloader called Juice (free)
Timer applications which I didn't even install yet. He says take a break for X minutes and more if you need it - I don't need a timer for that.

Writing
I've finished RTK. I think I have good Kanji recognition but not perfect. And terrible for kanji outside of the 2000+ common use ones because I haven't studied them.
The method used is:
FRONT: 一
BACK: ONE horizontal line. ひと・つ

PS: I made my own Kanji poster. You can access it here:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BxdMZeu...y=COL1mqcB
The kanjiposter.com poster is too expensive for what it is. I'll markup mine and print another when I want another. I don't have 11x17 printing facilities at home but it's not a huge issue.

Currently we are just getting used to adding cards (1 per day) - haven't reviewed any yet.


Reading - not started


If Khatz has a problem with me sharing this here, well I use the same username for my SS account as here, so he knows what to do. I'm of the opinion that "He's makin' plenty of money - he doesn't have to stick it to me for the closing costs!" - modification of no closing cost home loan radio ad on air in my area.

Oh dear! Sounds like a World of Warcraft leveling guide. (That's a good thing as they work when you're fresh.)

AJATT SS Breakdown:

Admin: it was reported to me that this entire post was copied verbatim from a non-free, commercial AJATT product. Edited out as per forum rules. Please don't copy content from other commercial sites.

i think the idea of him becoming a personal tutor is a good one!

but, i do think there's things he could do better, and also things he should watch out for.

"Working definition of fluency:

Reading: Can read a randomly selected general interest (e.g. newspaper) article aloud.
Listening/Speaking: Can listen to a randomly selected 60~90-second audio clip from prime-time television and repeat the dialogue.
Express ideas directly or via circumlocution
Writing: Can accurately transcribe a randomly selected audio 60~90-second spoken exchange from prime-time television or radio."

... i can't listen to a randomly selected 60-90 second audio clip from prime time television and repeat the dialogue in my native language. Does he mean shadow the dialogue?

he should also be careful with the writing fluency definition, i think it should read more like "can accurately transcribe the majority of a...". I've been listening pretty much constantly for 2 years now, and still there's words i can't catch, mumbles that confuse me, technical language or unknown words here and there.

i think a better service would perhaps be a little more individually targeted, and include getting to know people's skills and weaknesses, and areas they're going to have to work a little harder than other people on, or require more motivational help with.

i also think that the working definition of what people could achieve in 1.5 years could be stronger than that, especially in the areas of speaking and writing (i.e. actually being able to converse fluidly / being able to write quickly, and from your own head, rather than transcribing / repeating) with the right tutor... i.e. one that will give you lots of practise time and help.

I stopped mainly because the first 200 days are a waste. I'm sure I could benefit from sentences as thats the stage I'm at but the Kanji and immersion I've been doing already and the first 2 weeks of SS were no different than what I've already been doing.

http://tabetaiii.wordpress.com/category/ajatt-ss/

Everything you need to know is in these 4 blog posts.
Based on these blog posts, I think it would be worth buying.
But as you all know, silverspoon isn't for everyone.

domokun1134 Wrote:The info on the AJATT site is somewhat vague and doesn't show examples of the content. I'm left wondering exactly what this service is. Is it as amazing as Khatz says it is? Has anyone tried it?

isn't it always vague? I personally take the best of AJATT and the motivation and learn from what the results give me

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:AJATT SS Breakdown: *copyrighted content*

First 42 days are a waste of time and only serve to leech money in my opinion. 140 days for RtK is just ridiculous, I did it in about a month and I think it doesn't benefit you at all if you don't do it in atleast 2-3 months max. You could learn all the kana in 3 days, and that's if you're slow. So that's 198 days before you even get to sentences or anything else. I respect Khatzumoto for his achievements in the past, and while most of his 'posts' are nothing but recycled motivational drivel I appreciate that he tries to keep others motivated. But to me it looks as though he's exploiting his internet position as 'language guru' to make some quick cash now that he's out of a job. Anyone that pays for this is either very naive or has no experience with learning languages. There are heaps of advice on this site that will serve people much better than Khatzumoto ever can, and all of it is free. If it takes you 198 days just to get to the sentence phase then you should just give up on learning Japanese, because it's going to take forever.

Kuma01 Wrote:

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:AJATT SS Breakdown:

*copyrighted content*

First 42 days are a waste of time and only serve to leech money in my opinion. 140 days for RtK is just ridiculous, I did it in about a month and I think it doesn't benefit you at all if you don't do it in atleast 2-3 months max. You could learn all the kana in 3 days, and that's if you're slow. So that's 198 days before you even get to sentences or anything else. I respect Khatzumoto for his achievements in the past, and while most of his 'posts' are nothing but recycled motivational drivel I appreciate that he tries to keep others motivated. But to me it looks as though he's exploiting his internet position as 'language guru' to make some quick cash now that he's out of a job. Anyone that pays for this is either very naive or has no experience with learning languages. There are heaps of advice on this site that will serve people much better than Khatzumoto ever can, and all of it is free. If it takes you 198 days just to get to the sentence phase then you should just give up on learning Japanese, because it's going to take forever.

more than half of all that have taken the challenge of learning japanese wouldn't have gotten as far as they did without khatz's ideas. in fact, khatz influenced much of the "advice" on this forum. many people wouldn't even be utilizing heisig's method wthout ajatt...

lolol. anyhow, it sounds like you followed the "ajatt" process. he deserves some credit. i mean, his site's been up for 5 years, and most of his site has been free.

i'm certain i would never have gained my current proficiency in japanese without khatz's [free] ideas.

he's out of a job? i thought he was a programmer in japan.

mark95427 Wrote:http://tabetaiii.wordpress.com/category/ajatt-ss/

Everything you need to know is in these 4 blog posts.
Based on these blog posts, I think it would be worth buying.
But as you all know, silverspoon isn't for everyone.

... i think, people on RTK are generally EXACTLY the type of people it isn't designed for, so there's probably gonna be mainly criticism from people here...

mark95427 Wrote:more than half of all that have taken the challenge of learning japanese wouldn't have gotten as far as they did without khatz's ideas. in fact, khatz influenced much of the "advice" on this forum. many people wouldn't even be utilizing heisig's method wthout ajatt...

lolol. anyhow, it sounds like you followed the "ajatt" process. he deserves some credit. i mean, his site's been up for 5 years, and most of his site has been free.

i'm certain i would never have gained my current proficiency in japanese without khatz's [free] ideas.

he's out of a job? i thought he was a programmer in japan.

While it's certainly true that Khatz has influenced much of the advice on this forum, that doesn't mean that all (or even the majority) of his advice is necessarily any good. Remember Khatz is just another guy on the internet. His advice is echoed on this forum and on blogs etc by all sorts of newbs eager to declare it the best method out there before having actually accumulated enough experience to objectively judge it. Most of what can be considered Khatz's methodology is overly complicated and hugely inefficient because (despite what he may think regarding SRS) it is overly concerned with exercising the short term memory. Apart from the common sense principal of exposing yourself to the target language, most of his methodology is not echoed anywhere by polyglots much more accomplished than him. I'm talking about people who can speak four or five or more languages at a high level, and you can find plenty of them on the interwebs.

IceCream Wrote:

mark95427 Wrote:http://tabetaiii.wordpress.com/category/ajatt-ss/

Everything you need to know is in these 4 blog posts.
Based on these blog posts, I think it would be worth buying.
But as you all know, silverspoon isn't for everyone.

... i think, people on RTK are generally EXACTLY the type of people it isn't designed for, so there's probably gonna be mainly criticism from people here...

wwwwwwwwwwww

People on here are all doing things their own way, that's what's so good about our forum The only thing we all share is RTK.

" Yes, it may sound like those sceptical ads, ”get ripped in 6 weeks” But if you have been studying Japanese for a while, you might have come across his website, AJATT (All Japanese All The Time). And you can tell, this guy knows what his talking about. No, I’m not worshipping him as some god, but do agree with most of what he writes. "

Haha, this made me laugh for some reason.

Anyway, I think that maybe 5 % of his advice is good/what I agree with, and it's worth reading, but hell...most of the stuff is just experiments!

He even went as far as writing 10 posts on timeboxing, but I never got it to working for me.

The concept of timeboxing sounds far too much like micro-managing yourself. I don't want some egg timer instructing me what to do every ten minutes...

IceCream Wrote:... i think, people on RTK are generally EXACTLY the type of people it isn't designed for, so there's probably gonna be mainly criticism from people here...

innit. especially as some people here find it difficult to imagine anyone studying successfully in a different way to themselves (which is obviously the *right* way to study)

nadiatims Wrote:The concept of timeboxing sounds far too much like micro-managing yourself. I don't want some egg timer instructing me what to do every ten minutes...

Yeah, it's robotic...

Personally If I had a coach who would order me to do a record amount of push-ups in 2 minutes, better than the last time, then it would be totally cool!

But having an eggtimer is just a ripoff

Timeboxing to me is like those video games that have time limits to complete a mission. Nobody likes them, those and escort missions.. Anyways, It's cool if timeboxing keeps you focused I totally understand. I do a version of it myself without strict limits though. 2 here 3 there eventually it gets done. Do what you think will yield success. Some people can adapt to self studying some can't. Khatz knows there is a market for people who feel they can't learn something as big as a language by them self and is offering a Teacher/student support program thingy. It is a service, people who need it will buy it and people who don't won't.

(Watch as somebody posts how much they love timed and escort missions in games :|)

Nagareboshi Wrote:No detailed instructions are given, how to actually reach the 18 month fluency. Instead there is a rich source of ideas, and motivation as well, all over the place. He alters some of his ideas and methods, and sometimes improves on them. Kanji is no fun? Place the Kanji on the front of your card, and overload the flip-side with information, to name the most prominent changes to one of his methods.

This is not true. He gives a blow by blow break down of what you can do to attain fluency. Very concrete, very specific instructions.

Nagareboshi Wrote:The problem is, people seem to stop thinking, and start doing everything he suggests. 10.000 sentences? Boring as hell, but he reached fluency so i can too. Or do this or that deck, in combination with a grammar book, instead of traditional textbooks. Saves lots of money, but it isn't for anyone, but people still start doing it. This can be said for most of everything, from immersion, to change your computers environment to all Japanese. Which I, with a certain background to coding, and system maintenance, would never suggest anyone doing. Unless time has come where a person really understands what he is doing.

Now this is true. But the problem is with people looking for the 'ultimate' way to do a thing to begin with. Khatz himself has made several posts about how this is not a good thing, that the only ultimate dictum is to do what works for you, to take from the site what helps and disregard what does not. There is one in particular that addresses the issue of people enslaving themselves to the 10,000 sentences like they themselves are the route to fluency, as opposed to a byproduct of immersion.

Nagareboshi Wrote:But the problem is with people looking for the 'ultimate' way to do a thing to begin with. Khatz himself has made several posts about how this is not a good thing, that the only ultimate dictum is to do what works for you, to take from the site what helps and disregard what does not. There is one in particular that addresses the issue of people enslaving themselves to the 10,000 sentences like they themselves are the route to fluency, as opposed to a byproduct of immersion.

This is probably the single most overlooked or dismissed part of Khatz's site and the 'concept' of AJATT. Every post on this forum that contains a reference to Khatz treats AJATT as a checklist of 'must dos' instead of the 'here's what I did and how it helped' blog that it is.

SS is the opposite. It's a list of must dos and must buys. Sometimes it is general like "listen to any audio or video...here is a link to some." Most of the time it is specific. You click a link to start listening / watching.

We all know the golden ideas are SRSing, sentence mining and for some of us RevTk too. I learned about all these from AJATT website first and for free. Now he is trying to make money using his privileged position in the Japanese learning community. So? First I would do the same if I could and second is not like he is 'totally' ripping you off. I wouldn't pay for SS but I did purchase the 'my first sentence pack' ebook recently and I think it's pretty cool.

I see SS to be good for people who aren't sure what direction to take their learning in. Most people on this forum are good at being independent and figuring things out themselves. Other people aren't as good as that and need that initial boost.