This is something that's been bothering me for a while. I guess I'm kind of weird this way, but I'm worried that switching sources (JtMW, to Kanzen Master 3kyuu, and then up and up) feels weird to me, and I worry that there won't be that much continuity between sources, while doing something like DO*JG books, there'd be continuity because they're same authors all the way up.

Am I just being silly? I have trouble studying sentences lots because I get impatient/it's hard for me to go through them/they get kinda long when connecting sentences.

I'm probably just being silly. But...would people prefer to stick with one source the whole time, or switch from source to source and worry about continuity?

By using different resources you can get different explanations which is really beneficial
especially when it comes to grammar, which can be pretty complex at points. Sometimes explanations in one book aren't the best and you can learn much more from the other books.

I also don't like the format of DBJG that much. I find DIJG and DAJG much more detailed and precise.

That's kind of why I like the DO*JG series, is because the explanations explain /everything/. I'm not advanced enough for the DOI/AJG books, but I do quite like the basic one. It's just extremely long, and that's what worries me.

It is useful to get different explanations, though...I hadn't thought of that. The one sucky thing about JtMW is its lack of examples (often only 1 per point).

Well if you are on beginner level I wouldn't recommend DxJG because they are more reference books than course-type books. Basically, you will learn the best with the book that you most enjoy and want to read, you can polish points that you're not so sure about with DxJG later. It's good to go through beginner level grammar couple of times (especially with various resources) because that level requires the most apprehension and consolidation. Further down the road you will need less and less explanations because of learning things by context etc. DxJG will be the best then because you can choose one point at a time and get a complex explanation, so it's not so tiring like trying to read it all.

Hrm. I think I'm more of an advanced beginner, but not new to the language in that way, I guess. I do quite enjoy reading the DO*JG books, because they're interesting and cover everything. I do know the "beginner" grammar pretty well - I've been studying on and off for years, so some of it does stick. It's more the technicalities of the language, the technical grammar, etc. I am familiar with the basics and as long as I know the vocab, I can generally understand lower-level stuff. But it's the medium-and-up stuff that escapes me.

I'm leaning towards the DOxJG...hrm.

Sorry if I offended you with that level thing - my mistake. Anyway - just whatever works for you. I just concentrate on vocabulary as far as "constant studying" and when I find some new grammar that I don't know I refer to DxJG. It works good for me.

Rayath Wrote:By using different resources you can get different explanations which is really beneficial especially when it comes to grammar, which can be pretty complex at points. Sometimes explanations in one book aren't the best and you can learn much more from the other books.

Sometimes you'll read explanations for things you already understand quite well and that creates a danger in that you might get bored, start glossing, and then miss some details that you weren't aware of (and thus waste time)- but as long as you acknowledge this issue I certainly recommend mixing sources (for all subjects, not just Japanese study).

Rayath Wrote:Well if you are on beginner level I wouldn't recommend DxJG because they are more reference books than course-type books.

Rayath Wrote:It's good to go through beginner level grammar couple of times (especially with various resources) because that level requires the most apprehension and consolidation. Further down the road you will need less and less explanations because of learning things by context etc. DxJG will be the best then because you can choose one point at a time and get a complex explanation, so it's not so tiring like trying to read it all.

QFT

nohika Wrote:...I can generally understand lower-level stuff. But it's the medium-and-up stuff that escapes me.

By lower-level stuff, do you mean the canned sentences from core6k or easier native material? One of the huge advantages of JtMW is that it helps explain a lot of the slangy particles, modifications to sound more feminine/masculine, onomatopoeia, etc that come up in real material- which is one reason it's recommended so much (besides generally being a decent introduction to basic grammar).

It takes a tad over a week for a beginner to read it (ignoring vocab concerns and not SRSing sentences), and a non-beginner like you could probably speed through it even faster, which is hard to not recommend.

For learning new stuff with no background, I use KM 2kyuu with reference to DOJG. Anything before KM2kyuu was covered with KO2001 with reference to Tae Kim (as odd as that sounds).

When I read stuff in books that sounds strange, I refer to DOJG. DOJG's explanations are great.

DOJG isn't structured in a way that I find good for rote learning through Anki, because it's alphabetical. I suppose one could take the order from KM2 kyuu and go through with DOJG. I wonder why I haven't thought of that. Maybe I'll do it instead of buying KM1 kyuu.

The only thing I would worry about is treading water, buying books at the same level and cycling through them learning the one new point at a time, instead of trying to improve and push yourself.

overture2112 Wrote:

nohika Wrote:...I can generally understand lower-level stuff. But it's the medium-and-up stuff that escapes me.

By lower-level stuff, do you mean the canned sentences from core6k or easier native material? One of the huge advantages of JtMW is that it helps explain a lot of the slangy particles, modifications to sound more feminine/masculine, onomatopoeia, etc that come up in real material- which is one reason it's recommended so much (besides generally being a decent introduction to basic grammar).

It takes a tad over a week for a beginner to read it (ignoring vocab concerns and not SRSing sentences), and a non-beginner like you could probably speed through it even faster, which is hard to not recommend.

Well, right now it's finals, etc, and I type everything in, and I haven't had a chance to add anything in a couple months. I'm currently about halfways through the book, I think (I've been SRSing it). I can understand easier native material, generally - also the KO2001 sentences (only 30, 40 kanji in though), and the core ones (though I don't pay attention to them too much). As long as I understand the vocab, I can read okay, albeit slow. After JtMW I was going to go through the Kanzen master 3kyuu, then 2kyuu, etc. If I did switch to DO*JG, I was planning on going through them in JtMW order. Wasn't just planning on going alphabetically. xD

And holy moly, the people in FMA brotherhood speak /fast/. Train, listening, train...

Edit: I just worry, and then one of my friends has to constantly remind me there's no wrong way to learn a language. Just wish my ADD/lack of time/bad study habits didn't make it take so long.

nohika Wrote:This is something that's been bothering me for a while. I guess I'm kind of weird this way, but I'm worried that switching sources (JtMW, to Kanzen Master 3kyuu, and then up and up) feels weird to me, and I worry that there won't be that much continuity between sources, while doing something like DO*JG books, there'd be continuity because they're same authors all the way up.

Reasons not to worry too much about continuity:
* I think there's reasonable agreement about what really basic beginner's grammar is, so you're unlikely to be missing anything essential
* above the beginner's level, anything that isn't covered by whatever text you're using is likely to be easy enough to just go and look up when you encounter it (a useful skill to develop anyway)

A note on Kanzen Master, at least the level 2 grammar book: it's OK as a handy listing of "JLPT2 grammar" and for some example sentences, but you will need an actual grammar reference text to provide a usable explanation of most of the points. It's intended as more of a revision/fillin aid than a primary textbook.

I may supplement it with DO*JG, then...or does anyone have suggestions for other books for grammar? I've heard of nihongo sou matome, also.

The problem with Nihongo sou matome is that it isn't much better than Kanzen master at *teaching* grammar... I guess it's a little bit better, but the explanations are bad... or sometimes nonexistent.

DO*JG doesn't have definitions for a LOT of the N2 stuff. Drove me nuts when going through KM2 the first time. I wound up using the どんな時どんな使う dictionary (ISBN 978-4-7574-1235-4) a lot, and sometimes 日本語文型辞典 (ISBN 4-87424-154-9). Both are around 3000 yen. I also used some older 2級 文法 prep books when I got desperate. (Sadly, out of print.)

どんな時どんな使う is kind of weak on depth, but it will define it for you in English, just not as well as DO*JG will. You'll also get ~4 example sentences, just no translations. It's very "meh," but it IS comprehensive.

日本語文型辞典 goes into a little more depth, but it's ALL in Japanese, and if you don't know how to look up some grammar points, you won't find them. (And some KM2 grammar points just aren't in there... or else I'm just too stupid to find them.)

Remind me in mid-July (when the JLPT is over), and I'll put up a spreadsheet of all of my KM2 notes. I noted the page numbers of all of the definitions for all of the vocab in DO*JG, and どんな時どんな使う, as well as a couple of other JLPT prep books that are now out of print.

rich_f Wrote:DO*JG doesn't have definitions for a LOT of the N2 stuff. Drove me nuts when going through KM2 the first time. I wound up using the どんな時どんな使う ....

相変わらずありがとうrich_fさん、でも名前は「どんな時どう使う」でしょう？

nohika Wrote:I may supplement it with DO*JG, then...or does anyone have suggestions for other books for grammar? I've heard of nihongo sou matome, also.

I like this series http://tinyurl.com/6cmcaee It does JLPT grammar and gives what I think are decent explanations of each grammar point. Anyway you can see what it's like on the amazon link.

PensukeD Wrote:

rich_f Wrote:DO*JG doesn't have definitions for a LOT of the N2 stuff. Drove me nuts when going through KM2 the first time. I wound up using the どんな時どんな使う ....

相変わらずありがとうrich_fさん、でも名前は「どんな時どう使う」でしょう？

Yeah, どう使う. 悪い。