Depends what you're trying to say. はず is expressing expectation, how things ought to be or should be. So you can have:

Quote:写真をうまく撮るのはむずかしかったはずです -- it must have been difficult to take good photos

which is an expectation the speaker still holds (です) about a situation in the past (むずかしかった). Or

Quote:本来なら明日行われるはずでしたが、震災の影響で延期と言うことになりました。 -- It should have taken place tomorrow, but it has been postponed due to the effects of the earthquake.

which is about an expectation the speaker used to hold, but doesn't any longer (so はずでした).

This ties in with what yudantaiteki was saying about aspect and interpreting the aspect of one predicate relative to the other, incidentally.

@pm: Sorry, I didn't quite got your explanation.

テストは難しいはずでした。 -> how would you express that in the neg. past?
テストは難しいはずではないありませんでした。　???

Ah, okay! My question was answered by DoBJG right now! Both variants are possible, as I asked....

Tori-kun Wrote:@pm: Sorry, I didn't quite got your explanation.

テストは難しいはずでした。 -> how would you express that in the neg. past?

[I see DoBJG has answered your question; but since I typed all this out I'm going to post it anyway.]

That's OK, I don't quite get your question :-). はず in this 'expressing certainty/sureness of belief' sense has to be positive, although it can be past. The predicate you're expressing a belief about can be any of pos/neg,present/past. Some options:

テストは難しいはずでした -- the test was supposed to be difficult [but now I know it wasn't]
テストは難しくないはずでした -- the test was supposed to be not difficult (ie easy) but...
テストは難しくなかったはずです -- I'm sure the test wasn't difficult
テストは難しくなかったはずでした -- I was sure the test wasn't difficult [but I've just found out it was; nb that in the past we had a belief that the test as a past event _was_ difficult, so "I was sure it wasn't hard but then I took the test and found out it was hard" is not a valid way to read this; that is the first sentence in the list. The double-negative here makes the sentence a bit weird generally, though.]

There is also はずがない, which you might want to think about as almost a separate grammar point. It doesn't just weakly say "it's not certain"; this is a strong "there's no way" kind of statement.

テストは難しいはずがない -- there's no way the test is going to be difficult
テストは難しくないはずがない -- there's no way the test isn't going to be difficult
テストは難しいはずがありませんでした -- there was no way the test wasn't going to be difficult.

I'm kind of fed up with this rather unnatural feeling textbook example so here's another from google:

こんな気持ちを持っていて、自分の子育てがうまくいくはずがありませんでした。
-- While I was feeling like this, there was no way raising my own child was going to go well.

*push*

Since my summer holidays started again, I collected a few grammar question I could unfortunately not find an answer in DOBJG and hope you can answer! So, here we go!

1) ～ていく　｜　～てくる
I find the explanations really.. confusing. Let's have a look at the made up example below.

Ⅰ　春がなってきた。
Ⅱ　春がなっていった。
What's the difference? Both forms are used to describe a change. "It became autumn." Although, なる expresses "to become" in the English language already.. why is there a need ～ていく　and ～てくる then? I come across the latter form more often while reading for some reason.

2)　よう、そう、そう、らしい
Which one to use when? The two latter (そう、らしい) are used for the hearsay, f.e. "I heard this and that in the news..", "I read this and that in the newspaper", "According(によって) to the newspaper..."
But when it comes to differentiate between the two former, I have difficulties. Is it just possible, since both express something you see (visual), that よう is just stronger (more certainty)?

3)　~に関して、~に対して、～について
I guess when one translates the meanings from English to German from Rikai-san of these expressions, it'll be all the same. Therefore I can't detect a difference in them o0

4) "to try" // "to attempt" ～とする　~おう[Volitional]と思う　～ようにする ～てみる difference
Same here. I don't even know what the difference of "to try" and "to attempt" in English is, though, the latter has some nuance of "I attempted X, but.. (failed)", expressing failure. (Just my feeling) At least Tae Kim used the words "to attempt to do sth." and "to try"... I'm completely messed up with all the possibilities for "to try something" and "to try (an action)" T_T

Tori-kun Wrote:1) ～ていく　｜　～てくる
I find the explanations really.. confusing. Let's have a look at the made up example below.

Ⅰ　春がなってきた。
Ⅱ　春がなっていった。
What's the difference? Both forms are used to describe a change. "It became autumn." Although, なる expresses "to become" in the English language already.. why is there a need ～ていく　and ～てくる then? I come across the latter form more often while reading for some reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ve...eclensions

Look at explanation for て, there is a very elegant & simple way of handling this (the issue is probably a bit more complicated but you can worry about it later).

Tori-kun Wrote:1) ～ていく　｜　～てくる
I find the explanations really.. confusing. Let's have a look at the made up example below.

Ⅰ　春がなってきた。
Ⅱ　春がなっていった。

I'm pretty sure these aren't grammatical, because they basically are variants of 春がなった, which should be に. In general, if you don't really understand a grammar point it's much more useful to look at examples that have come from real life or from a textbook -- anything you make up is liable to bake in the misunderstandings you already have, or confuse the different senses in which a grammar form is used. And short sentences are really poor for demonstrating subtle meaning differences because they have basically no context.

Quote:2)　よう、そう、そう、らしい
Which one to use when? The two latter (そう、らしい) are used for the hearsay, f.e. "I heard this and that in the news..", "I read this and that in the newspaper", "According(によって) to the newspaper..."
But when it comes to differentiate between the two former, I have difficulties. Is it just possible, since both express something you see (visual), that よう is just stronger (more certainty)?

I'm pretty sure the DoBJG has a good explanation of the distinctions here, but I don't have it to hand.

Quote:3)　~に関して、~に対して、～について
I guess when one translates the meanings from English to German from Rikai-san of these expressions, it'll be all the same. Therefore I can't detect a difference in them o0

The most important distinction here is that について is less formal than the other two. The jgram pages on に対して and に関して might help in distinguishing the other two; note that に対して can mean 'in contrast to'.

Quote:4) "to try" // "to attempt" ～とする　~おう[Volitional]と思う　～ようにする ～てみる difference
Same here. I don't even know what the difference of "to try" and "to attempt" in English is, though, the latter has some nuance of "I attempted X, but.. (failed)", expressing failure. (Just my feeling) At least Tae Kim used the words "to attempt to do sth." and "to try"... I'm completely messed up with all the possibilities for "to try something" and "to try (an action)" T_T

English 'try' merges together some things which Japanese distinguishes here: "to try" can mean both "make an attempt (with the nuance that it failed)" == ~ようとする and "do something to see what it is like" == ～てみる.

Have you tried a grammar reference that has short in-Japanese explanations? Sometimes they can be helpful in separating out things with similar meanings, or where English merges things together and makes English translations and explanations confusing.

@thurd: Thanks for the link! Sometimes wikipedia is indeed quite helpful!
Following that explanation, does it mean, that the former describes something that is going to change from now, the present, till somewhen in future and that the latter means something along the lines of that something from the past changed and is still changing (till today)? Otherwise I find these explanations also irritating because f.e. なっていった is definitely past tense (no change of state in the future at least!)...

Quote:いく iku: Can express continuous action or a change of state in the future.
くる kuru: Can express continuous action or a change of state in the past.

@pm215: 1) Uh, of course, what an ugly typo! It has to be に... But what's the difference, or rather, the difference in implication and nuance?
Ⅰ　春になってきた。
Ⅱ　春になっていった。

2) I read the explanations for よう、そう、そう、らしい and they seem to be so identical for me ~.~

3) Oh, I didn't know について is just a less formal equivalent of ～に関して! Thanks for that information. Also I didn't know JGram until now lol I guess the following example from jgram makes it pretty clear:

アメリカでは離婚に対しての考え方が大分変わってきた。
In America attitudes toward divorce have greatly changed.

vs.

最近テロに関してニュースがよく新聞に出ています。
Recently, newspapers are frequently publishing stories about terrorism.

The meaning is absolutely different, it seems. The former means "towards; in contrast to [not in the example above, though possible]" and the latter means "about/concerning".

4) ~おう[Volitional]と思う　～ようにする
I guess the latter ～ようにする carries the nuance of "to make sure to do sth.", which can be roughly translated in English into "to try", also. But what's with the former? ~おう[Volitional]と思う　== ～ようとする??

Quote:Have you tried a grammar reference that has short in-Japanese explanations?

What do you mean with grammar reference? I have DoBJG and the other books of the series, but otherwise..

Tori-kun Wrote:1) ～ていく　｜　～てくる
I find the explanations really.. confusing. Let's have a look at the made up example below.

Ⅰ　春がなってきた。
Ⅱ　春がなっていった。

Just found this link http://homepage3.nifty.com/i-yasu/Lesson32.htm It offers a fairly simple explanation in Japanese with some good examples.

I think the main difference between ～てくる　and ～ていく is that the ～てくる refers to something that has occured up to this point in time, where as ～ていく refers to some change or trend etc. that will occur from this point onwards. As far as I know, ～ていく cannot be used in past form when used in this aspect (as opposed to パーティーに生ビールを持っていった).

Quote:2)　よう、そう、そう、らしい
Which one to use when? The two latter (そう、らしい) are used for the hearsay, f.e. "I heard this and that in the news..", "I read this and that in the newspaper", "According(によって) to the newspaper..."
But when it comes to differentiate between the two former, I have difficulties. Is it just possible, since both express something you see (visual), that よう is just stronger (more certainty)?

Going from what it says in DoBJG, verb+そうだ is based on conjecture/hearsay etc. So it gives the example

山川さんはフランス語を勉強しているそうです。 I heard that Mr Yamakawa is studying French

If it is masu stem+そうだ it means the assumption is based upon visual evidence i.e. the speaker has actually seen what it is he or she is talking about.

雨が降りそうです。 It looks like it will rain (because I am looking at the sky and can see all the rain clouds).

らしい can be used when making conjecture based on evidence seen, heard or read, BUT usually the information is more reliable than masu stem+そうだ。　But らしい can also be used when saying X is like Y. So 田中さんは男らしい means Tanaka san is manly, or Tanaka san appears to be a man.

ようだ as it says in DoBJG is based on what the speaker sees or saw, but involves the speaker's own reasoning too when making a conjecture. The degree of certainty in ようだ is the highest.

Quote:3)　~に関して、~に対して、～について
I guess when one translates the meanings from English to German from Rikai-san of these expressions, it'll be all the same. Therefore I can't detect a difference in them o0

～に関して = more formal than ～について but essentially the same meaning
～について = in regards to, about, concerning etc etc.
～に対して = shows what the action in the sentence is in response too/directed towards, or shows a contrast between two things like pm215 said.

Examples from DoBJG

1. これまで日本は外国に対して閉鎖的な政策を取ってきた。
Up until now Japan has taken a closed policy toward foreign countries.

So basically it is telling you what the closed policies are directed towards, which is foreign countries.

2. 日本の大学は入学するのが難しいの対して、アメリカの大学は卒業するのが難しい。
Japanese colleges are hard to enter; whereas American colleges are hard to graduate from.

Fairly self explanatory.

3. アメリカでは離婚に対する考え方が大変に変わってきた。

Sames usage as in 1. but it is showing 対する as an adjective clause ie. telling us what type of 考え方 has changed.

Quote:4) "to try" // "to attempt" ～とする　~おう[Volitional]と思う　～ようにする ～てみる difference
Same here. I don't even know what the difference of "to try" and "to attempt" in English is, though, the latter has some nuance of "I attempted X, but.. (failed)", expressing failure. (Just my feeling) At least Tae Kim used the words "to attempt to do sth." and "to try"... I'm completely messed up with all the possibilities for "to try something" and "to try (an action)" T_T

～ようと思う means that you think you will do something.

明日、図書館で勉強しようと思う - Tomorrow I think I will study in the library.

Again as pm125 said, ～てみる means to 'try something to see what it is like.' So if you have never tried eating yakiniku, you might say to your friend 焼肉を食べてみたい。 meaning you want to try and eat it to see what it is like.

As far as I know, correct me someone if I am wrong, but ～とする means trying to make an effort in order to achieve something. So

来年、日本に行こうとして、バイトの給料を貯めなければいけない。
So that I can go to Japan next year I need to save money from my job.

~ようにする means making sure that you do something, or try and make a habit of something. For example in DoBJG

出来るだけ日本語で話すようにしています。
I am making sure I speak in Japanese as much as possible.

私は毎日運動するようにする。
I will make sure I do exercise everyday.

@SendaiDan: Wow! Thanks for that long reply, it was really comprehensible for me!
Let me see..

1)

Quote:As far as I know, ～ていく cannot be used in past form when used in this aspect (as opposed to パーティーに生ビールを持っていった).

持って行った is a set expression then, right? (can be counted as an exception). Then it's quite clear what it means. Thank you also for the link.
[For those interested in the English equivalent of the page SendaiDan posted, just attach -en after the chapter in the given URL and you get the English version;P]


2) よう　> らしい >　そう > そう ?
Confusing...

Quote:Going from what it says in DoBJG, verb+そうだ is based on conjecture/hearsay etc. So it gives the example
山川さんはフランス語を勉強しているそうです。 I heard that Mr Yamakawa is studying French

You could say the same thing with らしい, couldn't you? It can also be used making a conjecture based on what you saw/heard.. Where's the difference? Is it just the amount of certainty?

Quote:If it is masu stem+そうだ it means the assumption is based upon visual evidence i.e. the speaker has actually seen what it is he or she is talking about.
雨が降りそうです。 It looks like it will rain (because I am looking at the sky and can see all the rain clouds).

Couldn't you use よう here also? -> "ようだ as it says in DoBJG is based on what the speaker sees or saw, but involves the speaker's own reasoning"

They seem all the same to me T_T Especially because they are all used for something one heard/saw.. besides the hearsay-そう it's quite a difficult mix, like with conditionals, for me at least.


3) ～とする

Quote:～とする means trying to make an effort in order to achieve something. So

来年、日本に行こうとして、バイトの給料を貯めなければいけない。
So that I can go to Japan next year I need to save money from my job.

～とする means "to be about to do sth."

電車に乗ろうとしたら、ドアが閉まってしまいました。
If you are about to ride the train, finish closing the door.
Verb volitional form (乗ろう) とする：be about to - (Try to do something, but the nuance is that it was unsuccessful.)

Thanks for the answers!!!!

Tori-kun Wrote:

pm215 Wrote:Have you tried a grammar reference that has short in-Japanese explanations?

What do you mean with grammar reference? I have DoBJG and the other books of the series, but otherwise..

I like 日本語文型辞典 but it's not the only one by any means; try browsing older forum threads for recommendations.

Tori-kun Wrote:電車に乗ろうとしたら、ドアが閉まってしまいました。
If you are about to ride the train, finish closing the door.

This is more like "I tried to get on the train but the doors closed [before I could get on]". Notice (a) past tense and (b) this is the intransitive 閉まる not the transitive 閉める.

Tori-kun Wrote:

Quote:As far as I know, ～ていく cannot be used in past form when used in this aspect (as opposed to パーティーに生ビールを持っていった).

持って行った is a set expression then, right? (can be counted as an exception)

No, I think the distinction SendaiDan is trying to make here is between where the いく in ていく is referring to somebody actually physically going somewhere (as in this example), and the more abstract uses where it indicates gradual/steady change。 持って行った isn't a particularly set expression, although it's a pretty common one ("taking something to X" and for the てくる form "bringing something to X").

However it is possible to use in the past form in the abstract sense too; we had a (rather confusing) conversation about it in the 'what's this word/phrase' thread a month or so back.

Tori-kun Wrote:

Quote:いく iku: Can express continuous action or a change of state in the future.
くる kuru: Can express continuous action or a change of state in the past.

@pm215: 1) Uh, of course, what an ugly typo! It has to be に... But what's the difference, or rather, the difference in implication and nuance?
Ⅰ　春になってきた。
Ⅱ　春になっていった。

I kind of feel like you're trying to look at an example which is one of the more obscure/rarer cases before you've got the basics. I'd separate things out into:

(1) Uses of てくる and ていく to refer to physical movement:
本を買ってきた ； 傘を忘れていった etc

(2) The most straightforward uses of てくる and ていく to indicate continuing changes of state. てくる indicates a change of state approaching your "viewpoint" position, and ていく is for changes going away from your viewpoint. The most common 'viewpoint' is "now", which means that てくる is usually past tense (change has already happened), and ていく is usually present tense (change has not yet happened):
春になってきた -- it's (gradually) become spring
[これから]春になっていく -- it will (gradually) become spring

(3) You can get past tense なっていった when the 'point of view' is in the past and doesn't follow the change. This is (a) less common (b) takes a less personal view of the change.
Notice that there are way fewer google pages for "春になっていった" than "春になってきた".

It's much easier to talk about (3) when you've already got a solid grasp of (1) and (2)...

@pm215: Thanks for the help! I really appreciate it :-)

Tori-kun Wrote:2) よう　> らしい >　そう > そう ?
Confusing...

Quote:Going from what it says in DoBJG, verb+そうだ is based on conjecture/hearsay etc. So it gives the example
山川さんはフランス語を勉強しているそうです。 I heard that Mr Yamakawa is studying French

You could say the same thing with らしい, couldn't you? It can also be used making a conjecture based on what you saw/heard.. Where's the difference? Is it just the amount of certainty?

Quote:If it is masu stem+そうだ it means the assumption is based upon visual evidence i.e. the speaker has actually seen what it is he or she is talking about.
雨が降りそうです。 It looks like it will rain (because I am looking at the sky and can see all the rain clouds).

Couldn't you use よう here also? -> "ようだ as it says in DoBJG is based on what the speaker sees or saw, but involves the speaker's own reasoning"

They seem all the same to me T_T Especially because they are all used for something one heard/saw.. besides the hearsay-そう it's quite a difficult mix, like with conditionals, for me at least.

I recommend having a look at this thread and reading Magamo's reply.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...5#pid78315

Remember みたいだ is the same as ようだ but just the casual form.

Thanks for the link. I will work my way through the material...

Edit: It's kind of important for me to have a comprehensible short summary of rules/formulas how to use these forms, therefore I collected/quoted magamo's explanations from the forum and DoBJG. Please correct me if I'm getting something wrong straightly, ok?

My questions under the quotes are marked with '#'.

#######################################################
～そうだ(non hearsay) vs. ～ようだ and ～らしい vs. ～そうだ(hearsay) – A compilation
#######################################################

Quote:この酒は水のようだ。This sake is like water.
ここは昔学校だったようだ。It seems that this place used to be a school.

# The usage of ～そうだ for the likelihood in the sentences above would sound strange, assuming it to be different to ～ようだ concerning the psychological aspect, right?

Quote:ようだ　expresses the likelihood of s.th./s.o., or the likeness of s.th./s.o. to s.th./s.o.. In either case, when the speaker uses ようだ, his statement is based on firsthand, reliable (usually visual) information. In counter-factual situations it gets also used and まるで is taken for more emphasis:

木村さんはまるで酒を飲んだようだ。 Mr. Kimura looks as if he had just drunk sake.

～みたいだ is the colloquial form of ～ようだ.

# So, perhaps I'm close to Mr. Kimura and we sit at a bar - could I, considering the psychological aspect of ～そうだ us it, also? Or is it a rule, that ～ようだ gets used for this situations? If so, I'm quite messed up and more confused.. where's the rule then? Or does "counter-factual" mean, that he acts/speaks like "as if" he is "drunk", but in fact could be completely sober and just a bit tired (f.e.)?

Quote:There are a few related expressions conveying similar ideas to ～ようだ

かもしれない ＜ だろう（でしょう）＜ に違いない express also conjecture (different degree of certainty), but not necessarily based on reliable information. Merely guess-work is done.

# Not necessarily an „evidence“ as such (visual etc. information) are needed. You say it just like that with no proof/guarantee (?) implied. I just included かもしれない and に違いない for completeness (hope it wasn't wrong though?). They don't appear in this <...<... form in DoBJG, for your notice.

Quote:らしい is used when one guesses but usually らしい implies that you heard that X was true or you have some similar evidence/proof/reason, e.g., old adages, well-known facts and common sense. If you're (almost) sure that X is true because the evidence, etc. is strong, らしい is just softening your sentence so you don't sound too assertive. And while そうだ(hearsay) is strictly quoting someone and putting you under no responsibility for it being correct or not, with らしい it's your conclusion and you had some responsibility if it turns out to be wrong.

# So unlike a normal, "out of the blue sky"-guess, ～らしい tends to have some evidence (you heard). It is also implied, using ～らしい, it's your conclusion you came to after hearing this and that -- you kind of take responsibility what you say then.. unlike ～そうだ(hearsay), using to quote someone stricly (f.e. newspaper, weatherforecasts etc.　記事によってＸだそうだ。)

Quote:「明日雨が降るそうだ」 would mean you're putting your full faith in the weather report.
「明日雨が降るらしい」 would mean that you'd decided that the weather report is correct and to trust it.
But according to a comment here, らしい is inference and not hearsay (but inference based on hearsay/etc., a roundabout conclusion). It doesn't have to be based on what you're heard.

# So, basically, the idea with the "responsibility" is described once again here: "would mean that you'd decided that the weather report is correct and to trust it" = your conclusion (using ～らしい). "そうだ(hearsay) is strictly quoting someone here again, right? And putting you under no responsibility for it being correct or not..."

Quote:「明日雨が降るらしい」: you've concluded yourself based on the movements of the clouds.
「彼女結婚したらしい」: you've noticed that she's wearing a ring he hadn't been wearing before.

# Same as above again, right?


(skipped a bit in content, but coming now to ～ようだ　～そうだ(non-hearsay))

Quote:The actual difference between non-hearsay そうだ and そうだ-like ようだ lies in the psychological distance between you and the event, appearance, or other kinds of thing you're mentioning. When you use そうだ, you're psychologically/emotionally tied to the thing/event/situation/whatever and often you're picturing an imaginary world where X in Xそうだ is true and you're standing there in your mind. You might be in an on-going/about-to-happen event, and in that case, the imaginary world can be the very close future world you're picturing in your mind.
In other words, you use そうだ when you're both an observer and a person who is currently involved in some way while ようだ is used when you feel you're an observer and kind of an outsider. When you use そうだ, the situation you're taking about is psychologically in front of you.
For this reason, it's impossible to use そうだ when you're talking about an event that already happened or finished.

# Besides the psychological difference/nuance between those two forms isn't ～ようだ "It seems..." stronger than ～そうだ "It seems.."?


And before I forget: らしい vs. ようだ/みたいだ. (from http://bit.ly/pcQvjU)

Quote:ようだ has various meanings and usages, and らしい can often be replaced with it without changing its meaning very much. But there is a slight difference. For example:
彼は明日来るらしい。(I heard that...)
彼は明日来るようだ。(It seems that... i.e., You may or may not have heard so.)

# So in fact, ～ようだ is a pure observation, and from all ～そうだ　～らしい the strongest one in degree of likelihood? (+ the fact that it puts more emphasize on what you saw+ reliable and own reasonening/judging) f.e.

Quote:この辺はよく雨が降るようだ。 (Judging from the abundance of trees and moss) It seems to rain here a lot.

Sorry for that long post, but I'm really eager to be (fully?) capable of using these forms as correctly as the conditionals (next post, *puh*) in Japanese.. It's just that perfectionist in me wanting to know all the rules, differences and I suppose just learning the differences by tons of example sentences is rather difficult not knowing any rules, right? Thanks for answering in advance, I really appreciate it!!

OK, here we go again. This time I work myself through 【日本語総まとめ・文法編】 and I thought it's a good idea to work on the single points together with a few guys from Lang8 (my private teachers in a way lol). If you are interested you can read along and perhaps the one or another question will be answered!

【日本語総まとめ・文法編】　第一週 1日
http://lang-8.com/198736/journals/1144521/
【日本語総まとめ・文法編】　第一週 2日
http://lang-8.com/198736/journals/1146043/
【日本語総まとめ・文法編】　第一週 3日
http://lang-8.com/198736/journals/1147576/
【日本語総まとめ・文法編】　第一週 ４日
http://lang-8.com/198736/journals/1149163
【日本語総まとめ・文法編】　第一週 ５日
http://lang-8.com/198736/journals/1150531/

Hope I could help