Thanks for that virtual 'kick-arse', Nagareboshi, you are extremely good and helpful in this. I'd suggest you copy and paste this entry to your blog under a special category

I find Tae Kim is a really proper book, as it covers f.e. all the conditional at once and not in dribs and drabs. Therefore I look at it more often when I have troubles with the conditionals.

See, I have holidays; I'd really like to do a lot in japanese and learn it more thoroughly and the point is that one gets easily messed up in one's own system - turning into the messy system called "chaos", right.

Hm, let me further abuse this thread. (Please correct the following!)

Concerning に and で
猫は塀の中にいます。
猫は塀の中で魚を食べています。
に: used for a place/location where something/etc. is. (was this the so called "non-action"?)
で: used for an action taking place somewhere. (was this the short-term action?)

yudantaiteki Wrote:I don't know if you need to complicate -te aru by adding in things about intentions; it just represents a completed action that's done by someone you don't state (either because it's not important or you don't know). More or less equivalent to one use of the passive in English.

Intentions are actually a pretty important aspect of てある. That's the way I was taught, originally, but just to check I looked through a couple of Japanese grammar explanations online written for Japanese people. This is a copy paste from one of them: Attention to the second bullet point in each section, about 人間などの意思. ている doesn't include it, while てある does.

１）「～ている」（結果の残存（状態））

　　「～が」＋無意志動詞（自動詞）＋ている

　　例：「窓が開いている」「エアコンがついている」

　　・行為そのものではなく、その結果や変化に注目する表現である。

　　・人間などの意志(意図)が含まれていない場合、あるいは、自然力の影響などでできごとが起こった場合に用いられる。



２）「～てある」（結果の残存（状態））

「～が」＋意志動詞(他動詞)＋てある

例：「窓が開けてある」「エアコンがつけてある」

　　　・行為に注目している。

・人が意志(意図)的にそのできごとを引き起こしたととらえる。

link: http://homepage3.nifty.com/i-yasu/Lesson33.htm

I think in that case they're just emphasizing that something like 開けてある includes the idea that the action was done by someone (through 意志, will) rather than just describing a state the way that 開いている does. What I meant is that if you're wanting to use てある, you do not need to worry about whether there is some specific "intention" for the action (in the sense of a goal).

@yudantaiteki Yeah, I can see what you mean. Although consider the fact that they contrast it with "人間などの意志(意図)が含まれていない場合、あるいは、自然力の影響などでできごとが起こった場合に用いられる。" ている either occurred naturally without human action OR occurred as the result of a human action that DOESN'T include intention, aim, volition, etc. That makes it seem like the combination of human action and "will" is important for てある。

@asriel I'm not sure about that. I think you're making my point for me. ている can be used without intention. てある on the other hand means something was done on purpose... ie with a purpose. That's the same thing I was saying.

Perhaps the more explanations I get exposed to and offered the more I screw up myself. I will forget about the -tearu and -teiru stuff for a while and cover transitivity f.e. first.

--- Sometimes I found the Japanese explanations out of Unicom's prep course for the 3kyuu really helpful, but what irritates me slightly is the following:

1) Humble Expressions, 2) Honorific ones and 3) Teineigo

1) Used when talking with ??? This form isn't quite clear to me.. Does it concern things the superior person does?
2) Used when talking with persons having a higher status than me by decreasing one's own position -> automatically increasing the position of the person one talks to or about.
3) just polite language

My guess is that the 'purpose/intention' aspect is more important where there is a transitive/intransitive pair and so there is a choice between intransitive + teiru or transitive + tearu. Where there isn't a choice, as with 書いてある, it's less significant. Obviously all acts of writing are "on purpose" in some sense, but using 書いてある is just saying "it's written", not emphasising "it was written deliberately".

Yikes. Keigo gets really complicated really fast. This is my last post before bed:

1) Humble expressions are used to refer to yourself or a member of your in group, and to present yourself as lower than the person you're speaking too. So, for the verb いる　to be, you would say おる。It's a humble form of being. 私は家にいます becomes 私は家におります。
2) Honorific expressions are used to refer to other people of higher status than you, and it works to elevate them. The same verb いる, becomes いらっしゃる.
社長はいますか？ becomes 社長はいらっしゃいますか？
3) I'm not sure about this one, but I think 丁寧語 is mostly used to talk about adding おs　and ごs to the beginning of words you want to honor, and making use of phrases like になる and でござる to make your sentences more polite.

It's 1 and 2 that are the most troublesome because you have to remember how individual verbs change in either the humble or honorable directions.

Tori-kun Wrote:1) Humble Expressions, 2) Honorific ones and 3) Teineigo

You're leaping all over the place here; it kind of feels to me like you'd do better to focus on one thing rather than bouncing off half a dozen different problems in one week.

Nagareboshi Wrote:～ている (almost?) always goes with intransitive verbs.

食べている？
書いている？
見ている？

pm215 Wrote:

Tori-kun Wrote:1) Humble Expressions, 2) Honorific ones and 3) Teineigo

You're leaping all over the place here; it kind of feels to me like you'd do better to focus on one thing rather than bouncing off half a dozen different problems in one week.

Agreed. Take it easy, man. Goodnight, everybody.

pm215 Wrote:書いてある is just saying "it's written", not emphasising "it was written deliberately".

I've lost track of the discussion, but this is what I meant get across. Reading bobby's posts gave me the impression that the "written deliberately" part of it was saying "for a specific purpose" ie. so the customers can know the drink prices.

書いてある gives me the impression that someone wrote it (ie. had the 'intention' to write it) but not necessarily that there was any innate 'deliberation,' 'plan,' or 'purpose' behind it.

Quote:With ている, however, you have either closed a door, as in the example, or the door shut because a gush of wind closed it.

so in this case there may or may not have been 'intent,' as it just expresses the state of the door. Whether or not it's closed because someone closed it, or because the wind shut it is irrelevant...because the door is now closed.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to disagree with anybody so much as just throwing in my two cents...

fakewookie Wrote:

Nagareboshi Wrote:～ている (almost?) always goes with intransitive verbs.

食べている？
書いている？
見ている？

As a helping verb in all of the above ている is used to describe an (ongoing) event during which something else can happen. テレビを見ている時友達から電話がありました。 Or some action that is currently in progress. 本を読んでいる, 食べている. If an activity verb is used, like 書く / 書いている or 話す / 話している, it is used to refer to an action in progress. And if it's a change verb, like 結婚する / 結婚している the change verb plus the helping verb ている is used to refer to the states resulting from change. This has nothing to do with the way both ている and てある are interacting with transitive and intransitive verbs.

I'm still having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. ている is used with both transitive and intransitive verbs, and てある only with transitive.

ている can refer to a resultant state regardless of what type of verb it's used with. That is, 書いている can either mean "I'm writing [now]" or "I have written it". Only certain verbs can take the action in progress meaning, though.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I'm still having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. ている is used with both transitive and intransitive verbs, and てある only with transitive.

It occurs to me to wonder what てある does with some of the edge cases. For example can you say 走ってある (generally considered an intransitive verb but can take an を-marked location)? Are there any verbs that take てある but don't fall into the simple "obviously a transitive verb which marks the object with を" class ?

No; the motion verbs where を marks a location rather than an object do not normally occur with ある. (This is why JSL actually makes a distinction between "operational" (i.e. volitional) verbs and transitive verbs)

There do appear to be a few examples of 走ってある on google (although some of them are just saying it's wrong).

Nagareboshi Wrote:

fakewookie Wrote:

Nagareboshi Wrote:～ている (almost?) always goes with intransitive verbs.

食べている？
書いている？
見ている？

As a helping verb in all of the above ている is used to describe an (ongoing) event during which something else can happen. テレビを見ている時友達から電話がありました。 Or some action that is currently in progress. 本を読んでいる, 食べている. If an activity verb is used, like 書く / 書いている or 話す / 話している, it is used to refer to an action in progress. And if it's a change verb, like 結婚する / 結婚している the change verb plus the helping verb ている is used to refer to the states resulting from change. This has nothing to do with the way both ている and てある are interacting with transitive and intransitive verbs.

I was questioning your rather general statement there

(good morning)

I must agree to fakewookie, that I'm also a bit irritated by what you wrote. To be deeply honest I found the answer of bobbyj, his explanation I mean, really comprehendable and I also think it's correct from what I read in my textbook now (it becomes clearer thanks to him; thanks for answering the humble/honorific language-question of mine which seemed to mess up the thread here slightly, but as the title says: general questions of mine go in here; I collect them.). So for the reference for other users who may encounter the problem let me quote him:

(In my opinion the first examples cover the difference quite well)

Quote:あの家の窓は板で塞いでいる。
That house's windows are boarded up.
(In this case, they have been and continue to be boarded up. This sentence carries no meaning about who boarded them or why. It's merely an observation.)

あの家の窓は板で塞いである。
That house's windows have been boarded up.
(In this case you ARE implying that someone has boarded them up with some purpose.)

Recall your examples from the forum "窓が開いています”
The window is open.
Again, just an observation about the state of the window. Notice that you have to use an intransitive verb because no one is acting on the window. It's just open.

"窓が明けてある”
The window has been opened.
Here, the state of the window is the same, but you have to use a transitive verb, because you're implying that someone opened the window with a purpose. Maybe you're noticing that other people must also think it's hot in this room. Maybe you're a cop observing how a criminal must have escaped. I dunno.

The whole point of てある is that it lets you add extra information: an action has been done by someone, and they had a reason for doing it. Even a sentence like "彼は窓を明けている： He is opening the window" says nothing about his reasons for opening the window. In that case, he might not even have a reason. てある implies an agent, and a motive.

For てしまう, again, you're making it too complicated. てしまう has two uses:

1: done regrettably
2: done completely

It takes context to know which meaning.

You can say "この本を読んでしまった。" to mean "I have finished reading this book in it's entirety.

For your homework example, you usage of grammar is fine, but I think your wording is a bit unnatural. I would say ”宿題をしてしまった。”　I finished all of my homework. (By the way, in English we say "do my homework," not "make.)

The regrettable aspect is all context. For a sentence like "隣のばあちゃんの裸姿を見てしまった、” it should be obvious.

For a sentence like "１人でピザを食べてしまった、" it could be regrettable, it could be completely, or it could be both.

--- (cut)
In Chapter 16 of the Genki 2 textbook ～時 gets introduced. It seems to be quite confusing to english speaking people concerning the usage of tenses and the proper translation of those, hm. I tried to figure out something before finally asking in here (again), so that's my conclusion (I hope it's correct. Again, please correct if you find mistakes, t hanks!!!).

- 4 possible time-combos possible, namely (the first phrase being the one with ～時 = [A], the other one after the "," being [b])
1) PRESENT, PRESENT
2) PRESENT, PAST
3) PAST, PRESENT
4) PAST, PAST

- Equivalents in Japanese (f.e.)
1) 学校に行くとき、りんごを食べる。
2) 学校に行くとき、りんごを食べた。
3) 日本語を学んだとき、中国語を学ぶ。
4) 日本語を学んだとき、中国語を学んだ。

- the translation of toki with "when" is sometimes a bit vague I found, so "A dict of Basic Jap. Grammar" tells us the phrases can be translated with "before..." (for [A]=present tense) or "after..." (for [b]=past tense)
1) 学校に行くとき、りんごを食べる。 - When I go to school (present tense), I eat an apple. (-> Before I go to school, I eat an apple)
2) 学校に行くとき、りんごを食べた。 - this one is troublesome for me; I can't think of a way translating it. It's incomprehensible for me.

- the following examples for past tense can be really well translated with "after..." I find:
3) 日本語を学んだとき、中国語を学ぶ。 - (right) After I learnt Japanese, I will learn Chinese.
4) 日本語を学んだとき、中国語を学んだ。 - (right) After I learnt Japanese, I learnt Chinese. (both happenings are already in the past)

Well can't do anything with the second sentence and would like somebody to explain it to me. I understood that if the time reference [A] occurs after B it will be in present tense, irrespectible if [b] is in the past/present tense (Japanese tenses).
I also understood that if an event was in the past, [A] has to be in the past and if [A] is current or yet to happen it has to be in the present tense...

Tori-kun Wrote:- the translation of toki with "when" is sometimes a bit vague I found, so "A dict of Basic Jap. Grammar" tells us the phrases can be translated with "before..." (for [A]=present tense) or "after..." (for [b]=past tense)
1) 学校に行くとき、りんごを食べる。 - When I go to school (present tense), I eat an apple. (-> Before I go to school, I eat an apple)
2) 学校に行くとき、りんごを食べた。 - this one is troublesome for me; I can't think of a way translating it. It's incomprehensible for me.

Have you looked at the DoBJ's sentence B5c in the 'notes' section of the entry on 'toki'? It is exactly parallel to your sentence 2) and has a translation. (either "I ate an apple just before i left for school" or "I ate an apple on my way to school".)

Ah! Found it! Well then, the example of mine was a bit "too easy" perhaps or the verb was not well chosen. How is this variant translated else if the verb is not a motion verb?

Tori-kun Wrote:Ah! Found it! Well then, the example of mine was a bit "too easy" perhaps or the verb was not well chosen. How is this variant translated else if the verb is not a motion verb?

That would be 5A4c: 私はご飯を食べる時手を洗った I washed my hands (right) before I ate my meal.

You might like to think of it as the 時 clause defining a point in time for the main S2 action. 食べる時 and 食べた時 just specify slightly different points in time.

This is an instance where it's really useful to view these as aspects, rather than tenses. Japanese has relative, not absolute tense. That is, if you just have 食べた, all you know is that it represents a completed action of eating. But depending on the context, that could represent future or past.

There are essentially two aspects in Japanese -- imperfect (something that is not completed), and perfect (something that is completed/realized).

When you have two different aspects in one sentence, you interpret the first one relative to the second. So with 前 and 後:

日本に行く前に、日本語を勉強する. (Before I go to Japan, I will study Japanese.)
日本に行く前に、日本語を勉強した。 (Before I went to Japan, I studied Japanese.)

In both these sentences, the studying takes place before the going to Japan. In the first case you have two imperfectives, so the whole thing takes place in the future. But in the second, your final predicate is perfective, so the whole thing takes place in the past. The imperfective is used in the first clause because it was not complete when the action of the second clause took place.

The same thing occurs with 後:
日本に行った後、日本語を勉強した。 (After I went to Japan, I studied Japanese.)
日本に行った後、日本語を勉強する。 (After I go to Japan, I will study Japanese.)

In this case, the perfective first clause always takes place before the second one (i.e. it's completed at the time of the second). So the final predicate determines the tense.

時 tends to be a little more confusing because it can represent either, but the relative tense is the same. If it's [Perfective X]時 + Y, then X takes place before Y. If it's [Imperfective X]時 + Y, then X takes place after Y.

So in the example: 学校に行くとき、りんごを食べた。 This is [Imp. X]時 + Y, so X takes place after Y. And because the final predicate is perfective, the whole sentence will be past tense. Thus "Before I went to school, I ate an apple."

Thinking about aspect instead of tense is confusing at first, but in the long run I think it really makes a lot of structures in Japanese clearer. The basic idea is that only the final predicate determines the tense, and any other predicate in the sentence is merely showing the tense relative to the final one.

Also, note that the て ending of verbs and the た ending of verbs derive from the same original source (a suffix in classical Japanese that indicated completion). So when you have ご飯を食べて、学校に行く, this is the same notion -- you have a completed action X, then an imperfective Y. Since the final predicate is imperfective, the whole thing takes place in the future, and you come up with "I will eat, then go to school."

The issue is actually a little bit more complicated than this but I'm afraid this post is not written well enough to be understandable so I'll end there...

fakewookie Wrote:

Nagareboshi Wrote:～ている (almost?) always goes with intransitive verbs.

I was questioning your rather general statement there

I see, sorry. I was questioning this myself rather than generalizing. See (almost?).

yudantaiteki Wrote:I'm still having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. ている is used with both transitive and intransitive verbs, and てある only with transitive.

ている can refer to a resultant state regardless of what type of verb it's used with. That is, 書いている can either mean "I'm writing [now]" or "I have written it". Only certain verbs can take the action in progress meaning, though.

What i was trying to point out was the difference in usage between:

1.) the helping verb ～ている with verbs describing changes / actions in progress
2.) the helping verb ～ている and how it functions with transitive / intransitive verbs.

げんき 2 was introducing transitivity / intransitivity pairs in great detail. For instance 開ける / 開く - 落とす / 落ちる and how they are used, and how they are different in use with the helping verb ている / てある.

It just seems that i was explaining it so badly that neither you nor Tori, to whom i was trying to explain it, were able to understand it. ごめん.

yudantaiteki Wrote:The same thing occurs with 後:
日本に行った後、日本語を勉強した。 (After I went to Japan, I studied Japanese.)
日本に行った後、日本語を勉強する。 (After I go to Japan, I will study Japanese.)

In this case, the perfective first clause always takes place before the second one (i.e. it's completed at the time of the second). So the final predicate determines the tense.

This whole 時 stuff smells slightly like は and が. It does seem in fact quite irritating and more complicated than described in the textbook, but anyway. Coming to the quote: the bold part you wrote yudan, expresses the so called anteriority, right? The latter predicate of the sentence sets the whole "tense". 　
後 can be replaced by 時 then, right?

For past:
1) 日本に行った後、日本語を勉強した。 (After I went to Japan, I studied Japanese.)
2) 日本に行った後、日本語を勉強する。 (After I go to Japan, I will study Japanese.)

For present:
3) 日本に行くとき、日本語を勉強する。 (Before I go to Japan, I will study Japanese) The last verb-tense is important. Since it's present tense, the whole thing happens in the present.
4) 日本に行くとき、日本語を勉強した。 (Before going to Japan, I studied Japanese) The last verb-tense is important. The past indicates that you have done something before the present (行くとき) -> going to Japan.

I hope we don't have to go any further into deep linguistic/grammatical explanations why and how, but just keep it simple and comprehensible for me (a beginner)

*push*

Another question. I came across ~はずです today. I wonder which usage is correct/which form:

テストはむずかしいはずでした。

or:
テストはむずかしくないはずです。
テストはむずかしかったはずです。

Genki 2 says, that if the statement should be in the past, one has to use ～はずでした, which is still comprehendible, but look above.. What's with the neg. present/past form of an i-Adj. for example?