Hmm, this comes at rather a coincidental time, one of my friends committed suicide two days ago

Sorry to hear that thecite (hope he/she didn't have kids...) :/

Quick side note.
I had been diagnosed with depression during a couple of years (I'll spare you the details), and believe it or not, medication only made me feel worse. It can help you at first, but in the institution I checked in every week, I got to meet all kinds of depressive people, and a lot of them were developing an addiction to their medication (which of course they didn't need in addition to their other problems). Sure, the severe cases need medication, no argument here. But in "mild" cases like Biene presented (severely depressed people don't go on the internet to chat, they don't do shit), I believe medication often hinders full recovery. And since you'll have to stop taking pills one day, might as well stop now (why I specified "if you can").

@ Biene: oh, and since you're a female, you might want to start with 250g on the wrists and 500g on the ankles.

EratiK Wrote:Sorry to hear that thecite (hope he/she didn't have kids...) :/

He was one of the most loved guys from our school, everyone's shattered. His dad passed away a few years ago in a freak accident and he never stopped feeling guilty about it...

Biene Wrote:Also my training clothes and shoes went into the luggage for easter holidays, and I'm sure my mom will be delighted to kick me out of bed early in the morning and send me off on a nice morning-jogg (~ 7 km). So I'm going to try to build up some kind of morning-routine over easter holidays, and hope to keep in (at least partially) up even after going back to work.

How about joining a running club? Some people prefer to run alone, but you might find collective workouts to be much more enjoyable.

I don't think I believe in this whole depression is a disease that needs to be treated with medicine thing. Depression is more like a collection of symptoms that develop when someone has to deal with some troubling situation(s) and hasn't yet developed the required coping mechanisms. Medication is just a bandaid solution to numb those symptoms, but if the actual concrete causes of the depressions and lack of coping ability (dealing with stress, accepting reality, self-esteem, expectations in life etc) aren't dealt with the situation will just persist or get worse. I suspect there are always concrete reasons and situations that trigger depression, long-term unemployment, longterm lack of relationship, low self-esteem, no friends, death of a loved one, poor health, lack of respect, bullying etc. People need to identify the causes and make concrete changes to their life. If you want to help someone, you should talk with them and support them in making the making the necessary changes and help them cope with the situation by being a friend, not by telling them they're sick and need drugs.

Quote:Depression is more like a collection of symptoms that develop when someone has to deal with some troubling situation(s) and hasn't yet developed the required coping mechanisms

.

You're wrong, of course. Completely, and ignorantly wrong.

Tell me, what is the basis of your ignorance and belief? Moral superiority?

Read up a bit. Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_%28mood%29

Folks, here it is.

http://www.heiaheia.com/

We can also add each other and comment on our progress.

you can also connect it to FB.

onafarm Wrote:Completely, and ignorantly wrong.

What does "ignorantly wrong" mean? Is that as opposed to "knowledgeably wrong" or "intelligently wrong"?

There isn't one single correct stance on the matter - everyone is entitled to their respective opinions and taking a particular viewpoint doesn't make one ignorant.

Speaking of losing interest in the things you used to enjoy, lately I've been wanting to get back into playing video games properly, but I haven't in years and I'm finding it hard to get back into the rhythm of enjoying them. Has anyone else experienced this? I don't seem to get as engrossed as I used to when I was younger.

[ファブリス]

It's really pathetic seeing people arguing here who have never taken an anti depressant pill in their life or have been through a significant depression.

I have, on both counts. Pills turn you into a vegetable. You don't "feel" as much. It balances out moods. But it also makes the real underlying problems dormant. It doesn't help at all. Furthermore, there are some serious side effects when you stop. I told that to the doctor, and he was bullshitting me about no known side effects. Another fresh young'un out of the university of knowledge, one of you people's arguing on forums about something you never experienced.

I pulled myself out of my depression by going to the gym and putting on 15 kg at the time, going from an average 61 to an average 73 nowadays. I never lost the 10kg even without doing exercise. Most likely it was stress and/or anxiety that was keeping my weight down.

When you're depressed, you're depressing others. Everyone feels it but they can't name it. Because of that you can't rely on anybody else, not even family or friends. People just unconsciously run away. The one time when you need people to help you, is when they are leaving you. It all happens unconsciously, and it's no one's particular fault. It's all the grand play of consciousness doing its thing in each and everyone's mind.

nadiatims is absolutely right. The only real way to heal depression is to bring underlying causes to consciousness.

I have been to Vipassana 10 day retreats and it has had a significant impact on my well being overall, and a permanent one. Sport works wonders too.

Meditation technically can work wonder but is very hard to do on one's own and probably not a good idea to do alone when depressed. It was actually meditation that propelled my one and only depression, back around 2000. Meditation will increase awareness of the underlying problems, since it intensifies perception of sensations, feelings and thoughts, it will also intensify the symptoms of depression. It's not a bad thing per se, since it will cause you to face a crisis, which in psychiatry I believe, is known as an opportunity for healing. It's often during a crisis that people change things in their life for the better.

So technically, medicine does help, of course. I believe, even in the doctor's terms, that anti depressant medicine is meant to lessen the symptoms so that the person can start taking action with their life. They are not meant to be used to "cure" depression!

TLDR: The only thing I strongly disagree in this debate, is the use of anti depressant medicines on the long term. It's not sufficient to fully heal. Thus others here like bodhisamaya are absolutely right in saying that relying on medicine alone is not the answer to depression.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

SammyB Wrote:That looks like a good site, lots of good adive. Any site that reccomends Rippitoe's "starting strength" program for beginning lifters is a good site, in my books.

I would also reccomend: http://stronglifts.com

Especially the articles on correct form/lifting technique. It's also a seriously good program for beginning lifters (pretty similar to starting strength). I wish I had read stuff like that when I started out, instead of wasting time with split routines, etc.

I won't object with you here. "Starting Strength" is the program that really got my lifting going. I'm now on a nice 4-day split, but this was my foundation.

Brought my lifts up dramatically. By the end of my 4-5 months on SS, I was up to:

Bench: 225lbs
Deadlift: 405lbs
Squat: 315lbs
Over-Head Press: 160lbs
Clean: 175lbs.

(Yes, besides the cleans and OHP, I was pretty anal about getting my "big 3" to the next "plate upgrade" before moving on. Blame my OCD).

Combine heavy lifting like that and some cardio and you will shed any extra poundage (assuming you eat right, as well).

Here's another thumbs up for Rippetoe's book (and video if you can find it anywhere). That guy basically demands from your physical strength what we'd expect from our mental training ie do more to get stronger. My current numbers are:

Bench: 295 lbs
Deadlift: 440 lbs
Squat: 395 lbs
Press: 185 lbs
Clean: 215 lbs

Though now I'm trying for the 5-3-1 routine combined with my own little concept I call CrossFit Quarters for the cardio/metabolic conditioning.

Yes, you can approach your physical fitness training with the same OCD that you approach your Japanese training.

About the pill debate...

This might be one of those topics that it's best to stop talking about for now. Obviously it's very personal for people on both sides, so tension will get high, but the end result will probably not be anyone changing their mind.

I think there should be debate about this, but this doesn't seem the time or the place.

I'm curious to hear more details from EratiK and jubei about how well their body-weight exercises worked / are working for them.

I have been posting from work so I haven't had a chance to put my thoughts fully into this. Like hatred, lust, pride and jealousy, depression is an extremely harmful emotional state. I think it causes more pain in your loved ones than any of the others. It victimizes everyone who cares about you. In extreme cases of suicide, the collateral damage is immeasurable.

I watched my best friend's entire family go insane following him sticking a rifle in his mouth and splattering his brains all over his bedroom wall.

Another friend swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills to punish those around her for ignoring her. She did die for a short while having a near-death experience in Hell where demons burned and tortured her for what she recalled was an eternity. She also bankrupted her family with hospital bills trying to keep her alive.

The extreme negative result of the emotion of hatred is murder.
The extreme negative result of the emotion of lust is rape.
The extreme negative result of the emotion of depression is suicide.

Of the three, depression is the most harmful emotion. It must be fought with ferocity. Taking drugs to dull the emotion only delays and intensifies the effects. They must be defeated at some time with a sober mind.

But if the pills numb you enough that you can get past the depression temporarily and start yourself on the road to recovery, then what's the problem? It's the same as taking painkillers in the initial stages of physical rehabilitation, just so that you can get past the pain enough to develop the strength to walk on your own.

It's only a bad thing if it becomes a long-term dependency.

overture2112 Wrote:I'm curious to hear more details from EratiK and jubei about how well their body-weight exercises worked / are working for them.

For me, I was pretty happy with the results. No equipment means you can do it at home anytime. I'm the skinny type, 5'10", in March 2007 I was about 133lbs, and couldn't get any weight on, no matter what I ate.

5 months of the training, I definitely got stronger, put on more muscles, and about +15lbs. Exercises are mostly variants of dips, push ups, pulls ups, jumps, and abs. Proudest result is about +1.1 inch of biceps circumference and a few muscles here and there.

I'm bad at keeping resolutions for a long time, and been very sedentary since, so planning to start it up again. I'd recommend it if you want to start muscling up, but if weights are working for you, then I see no reason to switch specifically for body-weight training.

Well it worked great, because you feel free, and you can only count on yourself. I did it for three months until I busted one of my triceps because I didn't respect a resting time between exercises. Always respect the resting times. I'm skinny too, but I didn't put any weight, because there are conditions (at least in the French book, I don't remember if YAYOG has a chapter on dietetics): you have to eat more, and you have to stop stamina trainings (like jogging), which I didn't because jogging really clears my head (more than working out), and eating four or five times a day is a pain in the ass. But I definitely said goodbye to my 10 year old beer belly (I also stopped beer, so that must have helped)(yes, skinny with a beer belly, I looked liked a goblin). But my best friend did it scrupulously and he put on 10 kg (of muscle) in 3 months (22lbs). But he had a noble motivation: he wanted to look like a porn actor. That's just not my kind of incentive.

Why would they suggest you stop stamina training?

Because, if I understood correctly, building muscles is actually destroying your old muscle fibers so new ones can be created, more suited to the new needs (bigger, stronger...)(Matthew Barney talks about it somewhere). In order to do that, your body uses the calories you have in stock. And apparently the main characteristic of stamina trainings is they burn these stocked calories. And it's logical when you think about it since a lot of body builders have no stamina, and a lot of runners have no fat nor big muscles. So they suggest to cut down on stamina trainings until your muscles have developed (yes, they don't say "stop", they say "it's better if you stop"). The max you can do without screwing up the program is like 20 minutes of running a week.

Does that mean Arnold "The Governator" is a 90 second man?

Talk about physical exercises/training here.

Talk about depression and medication here

well, i guess the discussion is pretty much over, i just wanted to put in my 2c.

Anyway, back on topic, i'm pretty lazy hahah.

i like walking sometimes, but generally in cities. I hate gym excersise, i can't imagine anything more boring!!!

i love playing games though, i like things like tennis, and shooting hoops in basketball. But i'm not a competitive person, and prefer to play just for fun. That makes it difficult to find anyone to play with, because generally people who aren't good at games don't want to play them, and anyone who is good wants to play competitively, and that bores me because i'm not so good. It's problematic!

I love snowboarding, but haven't been in aaaages!!! My knees are kinda weak atm, and i tend to fall over a lot lol. Maybe i should go on one of their sledge days

If i'm in a new place sometimes i go walking up small mountains and stuff.

In general, i just wish i had some friends i could do some games or excersise with. Doing excersise on my own is too boring to bother...

IceCream Wrote:i love playing games though, i like things like tennis, and shooting hoops in basketball. But i'm not a competitive person, and prefer to play just for fun. That makes it difficult to find anyone to play with, because generally people who aren't good at games don't want to play them, and anyone who is good wants to play competitively, and that bores me because i'm not so good. It's problematic!

...

If i'm in a new place sometimes i go walking up small mountains and stuff.

Wow, you and I could be great friends. I took out the snowboarding thing, because I'm a skier, but I love it! But I haven't been in forever...

My friends and I weren't the 'competitive' types, so we often played Lightning or Knockout rather than actual basketball.

Walking up mountains, going on bike rides with the purpose of getting lost, just general 'wandering,' maybe listening to music along the way. I always feel great after exploring a bit in an unfamiliar area.

yeahhhh!!! getting lost is the best thing ever!!!!!

what are Lightning and Knockout??

jettyke Wrote:Have you ever realized that going for months without much physical exercise had influenced your well-being/alertness/motivation to get things done?

jettyke Wrote:Talk about physical exercises/training here.

Talk about depression and medication here

Where else did you expect this to go?