Hi,

We are using the Minna no Nihongo books at my Japanese school, which insists on teaching the polite -masu form of all verbs before even seeing the dictionary form.

As such, when covering the -te form today, we were taught to work out the -te form conjugation by converting it from the -masu form. This means dividing verbs into three confusing groups as follows:

-verbs with an 'i' sound before the masu
-verbs with an 'e' sound before the masu (including several special 'i' sound verbs)
-irregular verbs (kimasu and shimasu)

However, every other explanation I can find (such as Tae Kim's grammar guide) explains the -te form conjugations by converting them from the dictionary form. This means dividing the three groups of verbs as:

- iru / eru verbs
- u verbs
- irregular verbs (kuru and suru)

SO.... which method is better? Do you usually work out the -te form from the dictionary form, or from the -masu form?

Thanks for any replies!

The dictionary form is all I've ever used. I couldn't imagine trying to conjugate from the long form.

Well, eventually it all becomes natural enough that you don't really need to think much about it at all. Until then, you're going to want to be able to go between '-masu' form, 'plain form' and '-te form' in all directions anyway, so it doesn't matter much.

I think that the actually useful thing is to spend a little time studying the various verb forms yourself, looking for and at the patterns and the different groups of verbs, and putting the pieces together in a way that makes sense to you. That will give you a better understanding in your own head of how it works than simply following a single textbook's explanation. Then doing the exercises from the textbook will be straightforward ;-)

i try not to think about verb conjugations, it sounds so mathematical. i use it as a last ditch thing but by then i'm already speaking mega slow.

instead i try to think of what i want to say or write and just go from there.

when i think of telling a friend, "i'm reading that book," right away I think
「この本を読んでいます。」

instead of thinking
"well okay, the verb i want to use is 読む and te form of む is んで and therefore the verb becomes 読んで and oh don't forget to add います to show that it's a continuous action."

i've listened / read enough japanese to where 読って, 読いて, etc. would all sound unnatural to me.

Ignore your class! Convert from dictionary form. I'll never understand why people insist on teaching masu form first. Dictionary form is the standard form of verbs which you'll see them in *far* more often than masu form. You'll have a far easier time if you remember them in dictionary form, and how to convert their "u" endings into te form.

There's actually a lot of reasons why ます is taught first, and at any rate you can learn either dictionary or ます form first and it doesn't make much of a difference in the long run.

But, eventually you'll start to think of verbs in their dictionary form rather than their ます form, so it's really better to convert to other forms from the dictionary form. Of course, having knowledge of both the ます form and the dictionary form is useful. For example, if you know that the ます form of たべる is たべます, then you know that the te form becomes たべて rather than たべって (in other words, the ます form conveys the knowledge of whether or not the verb is a -u or -ru verb)

Although, I don't think it will hurt to learn conversion from ます. I just think in the long run you'll probably drop it for a different way of thinking about it.

My sister actually showed me a little sing-song type thing she had learnt in school for memorising the て form. I used to play it through in my head in the beginning - now it just comes naturally though. You use the ます stem to work out the て form. It goes

い、ち、り、って
ひ、み、に、んで
き、いて
ぎ、いで
いく、いって
くる、きて

Even as you read it, it kinda sounds a bit sing-song. Kinda stupid I know but it used to work for me. This is only for group one verbs too. And just remember ～します becomes して。

haha, I remember that. And it worked with a snippet of Bing Crosby's "Silver Bells", if you know that tune. :-)

Silver bells, silver bells き,いて ぎ,いで
It's Christmas time い、ち、り、って
in the city ひ、み、に、んで

[repeat*]
Silver bells, silver bells き,いて ぎ,いで
It's Christmas time いく、いって
in the city くる、きて

*Or (if you don't mind an extra syllable at the end):
Ring-a-ling
Hear them ring
Soon it will be
Christmas da-ay.

(I still rely on "30 days has September...") :/

We also had a "te form song." Ours was based on the dictionary form

Apparently there's a whole variety of them!

Anyway, this is the one we used:

"You better not...pout" う、つ、る　　　って
"You better not...cry" む、ぶ、ぬ　　　んで
"Better not" す　　　　　　　して
"pout, I'm.." く　　　　　　　いて
"tellin you why" ぐ　　　　　　　いで
"Santa" くる　　　　　　きて
"Clause is" する　　　　　　して
"coming....to town" 行く　　　　　　行って

Yeah, it doesn't break up so well in English unless you hear it...

The dictionary form is better for me, from masu form can be a mess.

I think verb bases method is really easy a less confusing.

Godan -Verb Bases
Ichidan -Verb Bases
How to use Verb Bases

Technically て form is ます form.

Also, in old dictionaries the dictionary form was the ます form and not the 終止形 (what people call dictionary form in English now).

You are welcome for the added confusion.

Thora Wrote:(I still rely on "30 days has September...") :/

I could never remember that until I started studying Japanese and found 西向く士

に し む く さむらい
2 4 6 9 11(士 = 十一) = all the short months

Jarvik7 Wrote:I could never remember that until I started studying Japanese and found 西向く士

に し む く さむらい
2 4 6 9 11(士 = 十一) = all the short months

Haha, maybe I'll remember it now too. Up until now I've never been able to. So, actually, probably I'll just forget 西向く士 and continue to not remember.

I like that one. Although I probably wouldn't have figured out さむらい→士→十一.

My Japanese homestay sister used to count knuckles and spaces between. (ie short months were spaces and 7 and 8 are both knuckles.) Not sure if that's a typical Japanese kid thing.

Kinda drifted OT here.. :-)

Thora Wrote:I like that one. Although I probably wouldn't have figured out さむらい→士→十一.

My Japanese homestay sister used to count knuckles and spaces between. (ie short months were spaces and 7 and 8 are both knuckles.) Not sure if that's a typical Japanese kid thing.

Kinda drifted OT here.. :-)

That's how I do it too.

That is also how my father does it, WHILE saying the 30 days hath November blah blah thing.

The fact that the months were out of order and he was doing two things at once ensured that I tuned it out after a few seconds and never remembered/learned it.

Westward facing samurai is much simpler.

Tzadeck Wrote:There's actually a lot of reasons why ます is taught first

Oh yeah?

yeah. :p

It pretty quickly stops mattering. We did ます form first in class, whereas my self study was dictionary form first (so i basically learned them at pretty much the same time). I learned both sets of rules for making て form. I don't use either of them. I just say the one that feels right. Drill them until it's just obvious.

ます form is a little more regular to conjugate into the basic tenses (present/past, affirmative/negative), which i suppose may help a beginner. And if you're only going to learn one, it's probably better to know polite speech. But if you're at all serious about the language, the order isn't terribly important: you're going to learn both anyway and you're going to conjugate without thinking about it.

Be a bit careful about rules like 'i' sound vs 'e' sound. From ます form there are exceptions like たります→たりて. And from dictionary form there are exceptions like かえる→かえって or かえて depending on which かえる you meant.

One of my teachers actually suggested learning the negative plain form of the verb as it is unambiguous, then conjugating from that. Ie. かえない vs かえらない above. If the sound before the ない is an 'a' sound, then it's an u verb (Group I, 五段, whatever) otherwise it's a ru verb (Group II, 一段, whatever).

Thanks for all the replies and it's interesting to hear others learning experiences..

I can instinctively turn most common verbs into the -te form without much thought, but for new verbs it's useful to have some sort of understanding of the system behind it. For me, it makes more sense to go via the dictionary form to the -te form so I'll stick to that for now..

(The YouTube song(s) for remembering it is also a great help).. thanks!