kapalama Wrote:As far as the anime/otaku influence, you simply have to be kidding. No one, and I mean no one, I have ever met studying Japanese did not come to it from a Japanese culture fetish angle, except for those who came to it for an Asian women fetish angle. That's not a criticism of people who turn an interest of things Japanese into language study. Why would anyone study the Japanese language if they had no interest in Japanese things? Note that I am not criticizing that. The people who who wrote the original texts about Japan were all guys with 'yellow fever', from Lafcadio Hearn on through Alex Kerr. At least now people are studying Japanese for some other reason than they developed a fetish for the women. Again, not that there is anything wrong with either motivation.

But to say that the foreigners who have Japanese skills are sui generis from the AKB48 fans is missing something. Most American AKB48 fans do not have the skills to edit J wikipedia, but all of the Americans writing on J Wikipedia have an otaku streak, or Asian women fetish, or something of the sort.

This is why when you do studies of people the sample have to be random--because if it's not random the sample ends up being biased by how it was chosen. You haven't met anyone studying Japanese who did not come into it from a culture/women fetish angle, but that sample is biased because it's limited to people you've met. Like it or not, there's no reason to believe that the people you've met are representative of Japanese learners as a whole.

People study Japanese for plenty of reasons. For example, my Japanese teacher in college said that in recent years he's been relieved to have more students who are interested in Japanese culture--even if it's just anime and pop culture. That's because 15 years ago all his students were still coming at it from a business angle because Japan is such a big player in the business world. He likes it better with more culture fetishists--as you call them--because they seem more interested in learning about the culture as a whole.

Or even, being a JET, I've met a lot of JETs who really don't have any interest in pop culture at all. They're learning Japanese because they live here. They took the position because they wanted to live abroad and it's a good job. No yellow fever or culture fetishism involved. I also wasn't exactly a Japanese pop-culture fan before coming here, with the one exception of having been a fan of SNES/PS1 RPGs.

Tzadeck: what noble patience. *bow*
Kapalama: pls think before writing.

kapalama Wrote:

fakewookie Wrote:Personally, I have more faith in the creators of EDICT than that- I don't think they're adding these words without any research, though there are inaccuracies. But just because Japanese people wouldn't recognise it doesn't mean it isn't a valid word. I'm sure that most English speakers wouldn't recognise the word syzygy, or have any idea what a solidus is.

I am not criticizing EDICT for this. If they did not do what they do, no one would. But many of their entries are simply parroting what Spahn or Halpern put in their dictionaries. Someone submits it to EDICT because they found it in Spahn or Halpern, and to check it the EDICT guys go to a dictionary written by a non-native speaker (Spahn or Halpern) to 'double-check'.

Er, Daijisen and the Kojien are not "dictionaries written by non-native speakers", and the EDICT editors aren't silly enough to use kanji dictionaries as sole references (which is what Spahn and Halpern are) when they have perfectly good kokugo and j-e dictionaries available to them.

As for parrotting, different kokugo dictionaries can be remarkably similar in their definitions: [url="http://www.gally.net/translation/ijetdictionaries.htm]see here[/url] for a few examples.

The main problem with EDICT is that it is NOT a dictionary, it is a gloss. When one reads a meaning for a word, one has no idea which is the most representative or common meaning, or in which circumstances which meaning is relevant. The very simple mostly one-word 'definitions' also largely fail to convey the meaning.

The second main problem is that there is a very low bar for inclusion of a new word or meaning for a gloss. This leads to a lot of definitions that are incorrect, or are based on an author's unique stylistic usage (or mistaken/miss-written usage) of a word that only exists in one book.

One problem I've found a lot of is words that have been used to describe something being defined as meaning that something. For example, if I called someone a marimo because they were fat, someone might add that to EDICT as "marimo means fat", among all the other glosses for marimo. I blame people working their way through manga etc with EDICT and submitting everything they can't find, with no consciousness of author wordplay.

Read the diffs files sometime to see the kind of crud that gets cleaned out/added.

It is a useful tool, but like ALC/eijiro, you should NEVER trust it, and absolutely never use it for English to Japanese. The only time I use EDICT is for making Anki cards via Rikaichan. For everything else I use a proper kokugo dictionary (kojien, daijirin), or ALC as a last resort.

Basically think of an EDICT gloss as being an English keyword, much like the Heisig keywords are for kanji.

I'm not claiming EDICT to be perfect by any means; I just prefer it if criticisms appear to be grounded in reality (like yours)...

kapalama Wrote:As far as the anime/otaku influence, you simply have to be kidding. No one, and I mean no one, I have ever met studying Japanese did not come to it from a Japanese culture fetish angle, except for those who came to it for an Asian women fetish angle. That's not a criticism of people who turn an interest of things Japanese into language study. Why would anyone study the Japanese language if they had no interest in Japanese things? Note that I am not criticizing that. The people who who wrote the original texts about Japan were all guys with 'yellow fever', from Lafcadio Hearn on through Alex Kerr. At least now people are studying Japanese for some other reason than they developed a fetish for the women. Again, not that there is anything wrong with either motivation.

... Wow.

Japan has the 3rd biggest economy in the world. Japanese companies are everywhere. There are *some* of us who started learning japanese because it was the best thing for our careers and only later decided that japan was worth paying attention to for other reasons. And you know what? Virtually everyone *I* know is only interested in it for that reason.

As Tzadeck points out, beware sampling bias.

kapalama Wrote:As far as the anime/otaku influence, you simply have to be kidding. No one, and I mean no one, I have ever met studying Japanese did not come to it from a Japanese culture fetish angle, except for those who came to it for an Asian women fetish angle. That's not a criticism of people who turn an interest of things Japanese into language study. Why would anyone study the Japanese language if they had no interest in Japanese things? Note that I am not criticizing that. The people who who wrote the original texts about Japan were all guys with 'yellow fever', from Lafcadio Hearn on through Alex Kerr. At least now people are studying Japanese for some other reason than they developed a fetish for the women. Again, not that there is anything wrong with either motivation.

Liking something enough to study it doesn't make it a fetish.

kapalama Wrote:As far as the anime/otaku influence, you simply have to be kidding. No one, and I mean no one, I have ever met studying Japanese did not come to it from a Japanese culture fetish angle, except for those who came to it for an Asian women fetish angle. That's not a criticism of people who turn an interest of things Japanese into language study. Why would anyone study the Japanese language if they had no interest in Japanese things? Note that I am not criticizing that. The people who who wrote the original texts about Japan were all guys with 'yellow fever', from Lafcadio Hearn on through Alex Kerr. At least now people are studying Japanese for some other reason than they developed a fetish for the women. Again, not that there is anything wrong with either motivation.

I hate manga, anime and 99% of Japanese music, not to mention most of their TV is pretty uninspiring. I now only fully appreciate Japanese culture because I lived there. I started learning Japanese because it was the language that was taught in my primary school, I liked it and I was good at it. That's why in university I decided I would give it another shot. I used to be ashamed to tell people I studied Japanese incase they thought I was some wierd otaku-type or freakishly obsessed with anime, which couldn't be more far from the truth...Of course I am not ashamed of it now.

At # 2431 now, and found this: 惣嫁 (そうか) (Edo period) streetwalker (Denshi Jisho). Literally "Everyone's bride". Cute euphemism!

as well as 雪見酒 theres
花見酒 and
月見酒 too

窓際族

The windowside tribe...

kapalama, you have a Japanese culture fetish; people tend to become friends with people who have similar interests, so of course everybody you know has a Japanese culture fetish.

モータク now largely 死語 for Morning Musume fans. モーニング娘 + オタク

kapalama Wrote:As far as the anime/otaku influence, you simply have to be kidding. No one, and I mean no one, I have ever met studying Japanese did not come to it from a Japanese culture fetish angle, except for those who came to it for an Asian women fetish angle. That's not a criticism of people who turn an interest of things Japanese into language study. Why would anyone study the Japanese language if they had no interest in Japanese things? Note that I am not criticizing that. The people who who wrote the original texts about Japan were all guys with 'yellow fever', from Lafcadio Hearn on through Alex Kerr. At least now people are studying Japanese for some other reason than they developed a fetish for the women. Again, not that there is anything wrong with either motivation.

But to say that the foreigners who have Japanese skills are sui generis from the AKB48 fans is missing something. Most American AKB48 fans do not have the skills to edit J wikipedia, but all of the Americans writing on J Wikipedia have an otaku streak, or Asian women fetish, or something of the sort.

I started learning Japanese due to my interest in the Pacific Theater of WWII. I would like to be able to pick up and read stuff from both sides of the story in the native language.

While yes i do watch anime, I never truly started watching it until I started learning Japanese. It was usually just your typical stuff like Dragonball (Z). And Manga? Never read one until 2 years after I started learning. :\

Here's one I just came across: 寝押し

Just learned the words パンチラ and 見せパン. Was searching on Youtube for an old variety show clip, and instead I found that, haha.

I'm confused about whether or not they mean the same thing?

Tzadeck Wrote:I'm confused about whether or not they mean the same thing?

According to Wikipedia:
パンチラ → パンティーがちらりと見えてしまうこと。
見せパン → 「見せてもいいパンツ」の略。

Here's one I've come across: 二階から目薬

fakewookie Wrote:Here's one I just came across: 寝押し

Loved this one! (and new lazy person shortcuts are always handy...)

About the visible underpants - does that refer to guys with low jeans or girls with short skirts?

More please! :-) I like hearing about new coinages or slang here bc I rarely come across it.

I'm glad that it's on wikipedia, haha. My impression was that パンチラ and 見せパン could both refer to seeing panties from under a skirt. But if a girl's underwear is too high for her pants, or she has a whale tail, you would use 見せパン.

aphasiac Wrote:and of course the classic dirty ones:

マグロ女
絶対領域

Guys, I want to say that, beware of マグロ女！

I guess that I really failed using this word... be sure of where and when to use the words in this thread!

Here's my friend wrote about it:

マグロ女ってのはひどい言葉だからね
エロビデオにもそんなに出てこないよｗｗｗ
本当に親しい、エロい男同士でなら、あるいは使えるかもな？

jettyke Wrote:I guess that I really failed using this word... be sure of where and when to use the words in this thread!

Haha, I have no gauge on how offensive words are.

One word I've always wondered about is まんこ. Since, you know, sometimes there's reason to refer to that part of the body when you're talking to your girlfriend. And medical sounding words are no fun. Would a girl you've been dating for a bit be mad if you say まんこ? Anyone know?

Tzadeck Wrote:

jettyke Wrote:I guess that I really failed using this word... be sure of where and when to use the words in this thread!

Haha, I have no gauge on how offensive words are.

One word I've always wondered about is まんこ. Since, you know, sometimes there's reason to refer to that part of the body when you're talking to your girlfriend. And medical sounding words are no fun. Would a girl you've been dating for a bit be mad if you say まんこ? Anyone know?

I said it to a Japanese teacher once. Yeah, don't do that.

zigmonty Wrote:I said it to a Japanese teacher once. Yeah, don't do that.

Haha. I mean like, in bed, of course. Kind of like how 'pussy' can be pretty offensive in some contexts, but kinda sexy and appropriate in others.

稜線　is a really beautiful word and even most Japanese people don't know it. It's a good one to use when you see 稜線 and then you use the word and they're like....what are you talking about? Then tell them what it means and have them get mad at you for knowing more Japanese than you do despite them being Japanese.

jettyke Wrote:Guys, I want to say that, beware of マグロ女！

I guess that I really failed using this word... be sure of where and when to use the words in this thread!

It's definitely used. Maybe your friend is just a bit sensitive to that sort of thing. I've never seen it with 女 on the end though (maybe that adds a more sexist, objectionable nuance). I doubt anybody needs extra appropriacy advice for a word that basically means "crap in bed" though ( ´_ゝ｀)

Tzadeck Wrote:Haha, I have no gauge on how offensive words are.

One word I've always wondered about is まんこ. Since, you know, sometimes there's reason to refer to that part of the body when you're talking to your girlfriend. And medical sounding words are no fun. Would a girl you've been dating for a bit be mad if you say まんこ? Anyone know?

まんこ and ちんぽ are the only words I know of that can't legally be aired uncensored, and even on the cover of AV DVDs appear censored with a 〇. That might give you some idea... あそこ would avoid both problems in most situations, and I'm sure you could check with your girlfriend to see which one she's comfortable with.


As for the topic, オカズ is a word that I don't think has a proper English equivalent. It's basically anything you use for the purpose of オナニー, whether it's videos, pictures, what's going on through your neighbour's window etc.