Hi all, I've been using the site for a long time, but this is my first post in the forums. I just came up with a method for learning to draw (and I think it can be done simultaneously with AJATT), and I wanted to get this forum's opinion on it before I actually try it.

My theory is, since drawing can be seen as a kind of language, you can learn it by imitating the 'great speakers', so to speak. I'm thinking that you can copy (not trace) the drawings of artists who's style you like, so that you can see exactly how they draw eyes, faces, ears, etc.

The equivalent of RTK in this method would be The New Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, by Betty Edwards, in which she teaches you to 'perceive', or 'draw what you see, not what you think you see'.

So, I'm thinking, that when I get to the level where I can enjoy manga in Japanese, afterwards, I can copy the artist's drawings, thereby working on my Japanese and Art almost at the same time.

So, what do you think?

It seems like a very interesting idea. If you look at artists' education, there is an amount of work of the type you envision in every discipline. For instance, Bach was copying works by Buxtehude (perhaps out of necessity, to get a copy for himself), but other famous musicians did the same with works they wanted to really assimilate. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that Chopin was recopying Bach's works just as well.

The place where I think art is essentially different than learning a language, is that a language is simply an articulation of the same building blocks, whereas in art you must learn to make elements work together, which is the concept of composition. In other words, a drawing is more than the sum of its parts, but not a sentence written with kanji.

I would therefore suggest you do like you say, it seems good. But at some point you are going to need to acquire higher-level abilities, and the method will not help you as much.

Seeing the success I personally got using Heisig for what I considered for years to be an impossibly costly task, I am very intrigued by the potential of the method to be applied to other fields. I never thought someone could use that for drawing. Please update us down to road to say how you are progressing.

I have seen a lot of books and I actually own "The New Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain"! I'm not the greatest artist (http://gyuujuice.deviantart.com/#/d3dh069) but the best way to improve is to practice and no matter which path you take practicing will be the main factor either way -- it's really that simple.

Like I said I am not that great but to learn from my mistakes:
Draw things which are hard for you and make them easy -- I never challenged myself for years and now after a few weeks of challenging myself I have improved majorly in all areas of art. Go all out! (Same with language learning or learning anything really.)

I know some good youtube tutorials if you want them.

I don't think it would work as well as you think.

Sure, you can learn to draw from manga, that's how I originally learned, but it won't take you very far. You'll get stuck in a rut of only being able to draw manga (I know some people don't think that's a bad thing, but a well rounded artist doesn't draw only manga), but even more importantly, what you draw will never seem quite right.

Coelasquid of the comic "Manly Guys Doing Manly Things" wrote an excellent bit about learning to draw. I won't quote the whole thing but this quote shows a big reason for why simply copying artists won't make you a stellar artist.

"Figuring out how to draw by studying “this is how artist-I-like draws a nose” or “this is how artist-I-Like draws eyes” is a little like playing telephone. The artist has created something one generation removed from the original image they were trying to capture. You drawing what they drew is another generation removed from that. Things can become lost in translation and if you don’t understand why an artist chose to represent something a certain way you won’t be able to move the character properly, apply those conventions to other situations, or alter the idea to suit the requirements of a different setup. " (if you want to see the rest go to http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/ and do a searching for drawing advice in the search bar, it's really cohesive and if you have time check out the rest of the blog (and comic) because there are a few other interesting drawing related things)

When they say "draw what you see, not what you think you see" they really mean off of a real person. A piece of art has already gone through one filter, the artists mind, no matter how good the artist is, it will still be distorted in someway (that's what makes art different from photography)

The other issue is that, if you never study real anatomy you won't understand how the pieces fit together, and everything will look...odd.
I remember when I started practicing anatomy drawing, despite only working on it for a couple days, it had already vastly improved my other drawing.

That all said, it might not be a bad way to start, but I don't think it'll take you very far.
Oh, and Good luck.

Hmm... *thinks*

Well, if copying takes me to a plateau of sorts, copying the greatest artist of all - Mother Nature - should get me out of the rut, right? But yeah, I think I'll read a few anatomy books some way along the line.

I'm beginning to have some second thoughts about this method, which is a good thing considering I came up with it literally yesterday. Do I really want to start off by drawing Uncanny Valley versions of my favorite characters (when not copying)? Or with somebody else's style?

But I can't think of another method for now, so I think I'll just try it out while this forum gives me advice.

Don't get discouraged by this discussion. A traditional starting point in all art is imitating the masters - that step may have been discarded in modern education, but the point is that nature can be interpreted in many ways, whereas being a faithful scribe in the early stages has the advantage of making you learn a technique and thus simplifying your task. Divide-and-conquer, just like Heisig.

Mozart's, perhaps the greatest genius in the history of mankind, sounded just like Haydn in his first works. That's because he needed to acquire technique.

Once you've been an imitator for some time, my bet is that you are slowly going to develop your own style and see your higher-level abilities naturally evolve. But I would advise against copying nature in the early stages, because you need simplification and guidance. A style is an abstraction of sensory input, and without this abstraction, you'd be lost.

Well, if you're going to copy drawings... do not copy manga/anime. Copy real art. Maybe that's just myself raging at my dislike for the many people who attempt at drawing manga characters and put it on their Facebook...

Oh, and from taking some classes, it's more about learning techniques and applying them yourself. You can't just copy something. I'm probably wrong, though. I'm never right.

TheVinster Wrote:Copy real art.

There is no such thing as 'real art', and you know it. Anyway, I'm too impatient to draw anything realistically with my current skill level. Especially anything with lots of shading OH DEAR GOD SHADING! There is nothing I can do worse than realistic shading at the moment, but that means I have to practice it a lot. Which I don't want to do.

I need a way to make this fun. I foresee I'll get tired of this soon without one. Timeboxing?

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=870
Nonsense. Take a look at this thread. This guy first set himself a goal of drawing at least 2 drawings per day and after 8 years he is doing art as his job. Learning how to draw is not comparable to learning languages although both require insurmountable amount of effort. Get a sketchbook and draw from life. That's the best advice I can give you if you truly want to learn how to draw. Draw all the time and as much as you can. Trust me, you'll thank me later. You've got a long road ahead of you if set your foot on the road of art. Good luck though !

^ I know it's a long road, but I'm wondering if there isn't some bus I can take, you know?

I can relate to your agony but quite frankly, no. There are no shortcuts. So suck it up and draw

Not even some comfy shoes?

EDIT: Isn't "no shortcuts" what they said before RTK and AJATT?

"Don't bother with your petty 'mnemonics', child! Write each kanji out 10,000 times and then memorize this grammar book by heart! Don't even bother listening to actual Japanese because you won't understand anything!"

No offense, but you're kinda sounding like that right now.

* KMDES has both the Drawing on the Right Side book and workbook.

It is good stuff.

Interesting post. What I think is causing you so much difficult is that you haven't really decided if what you want to try is important enough. If you think about it, if there's no reason to not try it, you would right now. Make up your mind and you'll be fine.

Expanding that a bit. Once you've decided to do it, why not just try it out for a few days prior to processing the manga from a language perspective. A few short hours of trial over 2-3 days will tell you for certain whether it is worthwhile and tell you where the benefits and problems are with the approach, which will then allow you to refine or discard it.

Hesitation is a sign that a decision needs to be made. Don't hide from it - find your reasons to continue or discontinue based on it. You'll be much better off for the experience.

#After a quick read though:
Sometimes certain things suck. It's a fact of life that you'll need to accept some rather sucky experiences until you get good at something (imagine the obese man trying to exercise after a long abstinence from exercise - painful to say the least.) Probably the best advice that I can give you is 1) Know what you want; 2) Know how to get there; 3) Know why you want it. Number 3 is the most important to be honest. After you are sure of your direction and purpose decide on the minimal amount of shading you are willing to do in a day and prepare everything you need to do it (even 30 seconds of having to get ready prior to doing is too much in some circles - hence, have it ready to go in 1 second!) Of course, after that do it!

As you can probably see there is a bit of a process outlined above. Give it a go (preferably right now) and see if you like it - a fresh piece of paper and a pen might be needed, plus your drawing materials.

(Just an odd thought, why not draw things on post-it notes and have a wall. You could select whatever your felt like shading or working on at the time by pulling it off from your wall. Once you've completed as much as you want of it or finished it you can stick it back up and/or copy it to a scrap book - preferably one open and on display, so you can always see your finished product [the same goes for the wall]. I hope it helps.) <--- This is something you can do if you are learning to write Kanji by hand. Seeing your effort is very, very powerful and will keep you on task. Its just so tangible!

I pretty much worked from drawing simple manga style towards being able to draw more realistic styles myself. When I started out, I didn't like realism, so I didn't draw realistic people except maybe self portraits in art class. But after a while, my tastes shifted, and I found some really great art that had more detail and realism but was still stylized...and it influenced what I drew.

Mind, I took art classes at school, so I was drawing still life, etc. I also started collecting anatomy books and drawing from them.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with learning to draw from mimicing pictures you like ( I still do this myself). In the end, your own style takes over, because you are a different person from any artist you might be influenced by.

bowserevilking Wrote:Not even some comfy shoes?

EDIT: Isn't "no shortcuts" what they said before RTK and AJATT?

"Don't bother with your petty 'mnemonics', child! Write each kanji out 10,000 times and then memorize this grammar book by heart! Don't even bother listening to actual Japanese because you won't understand anything!"

No offense, but you're kinda sounding like that right now.

RTK and AJATT aren't shortcuts...they're different methods that work better for some and not at all for others. AJATT is a lot of work, and not necessarily practical depending on life factors, and RTK is only one small part of the language, it's like learning the perspective of the human body, but not knowing what the parts are or what they actually look like, you can't draw a picture from just that knowledge, and you can't speak Japanese with only RTK (not that I'm putting RTK down)

There are three things that will improve your drawing more than anything else you can do.

1) Draw...a lot, everyday. And not just scribbles and sketches, those are good too, but a finished piece will really let you see your flaws.
2) Challenge yourself. If you draw one thing over and over again, not only is it boring, but you'll only get good at that one thing. Can't draw feet? (my Achilles heel right there XD) Draw them. Can't draw animals? Draw them.
3) Finally, if you aren't enjoying it then stop. Find some way to make it interesting to you, and then draw it. (For example, I like drawing fantasy and sci-fi stuff, so anytime I do anatomy work the drawings end up with elf ears or other fantasy changes, it isn't much but it makes it more enjoyable to me) Art should be something you have fun doing.

Out of curiosity, are you interested in any specific medium? I myself use digital, but I'm looking to get into airbrushing sometime in the near future.

Thanks for everyone's criticism and advice.

^ I think I would prefer digital art. I have a tablet, but I'm not used to it yet, even though I've had it for a while. I can still draw better with pencil and paper, but I really like the idea of drawing directly on the computer, since I don't have a scanner. Plus, I like the way tablet art tends to look.

TheVinster Wrote:Well, if you're going to copy drawings... do not copy manga/anime. Copy real art. Maybe that's just myself raging at my dislike for the many people who attempt at drawing manga characters and put it on their Facebook...

Oh, and from taking some classes, it's more about learning techniques and applying them yourself. You can't just copy something. I'm probably wrong, though. I'm never right.

You got the second to last sentence right.

And oh no you didn't disparage an entire medium. If you can make a statement that manga/anime isn't real art, I think you've led a very deprived life, and may have a weak appreciation of what you define as ‘real’ art.

Beginning with copying is useful for learning many techniques, especially if copying involves practicing one's motor skills.

nest0r Wrote:

TheVinster Wrote:Well, if you're going to copy drawings... do not copy manga/anime. Copy real art. Maybe that's just myself raging at my dislike for the many people who attempt at drawing manga characters and put it on their Facebook...

Oh, and from taking some classes, it's more about learning techniques and applying them yourself. You can't just copy something. I'm probably wrong, though. I'm never right.

You got the second to last sentence right.

And oh no you didn't disparage an entire medium. If you can make a statement that manga/anime isn't real art, I think you've led a very deprived life, and may have a weak appreciation of what you define as ‘real’ art.

Beginning with copying is useful for learning many techniques, especially if copying involves practicing one's motor skills.

I'll admit, I didn't word what I said properly. Do I think anime/manga is art? Yes. An easy example are the Studio Ghibli (sp?) movies, they look amazing, with a great art style. Real art was a bad way to put it, so I apologize. That being said, somebody learning to draw shouldn't jump right into manga. Learn how to draw bodies, poses, and to put action or suspense into drawings. From the basics, you can interpret it into other art styles, whether it be manga, life drawings, or whatever.

A good place for finding some resources is this thread - http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=105734 - and also the whole subforum that it belongs to has a lot of good threads with discussion and motivation.

Your main idea however isn't that great. It reminded me of a scene in ヒカルの碁 when a kid who pretty much sucks horribly thinks that hey he can probably win over his opponent (who's awesome A++) by just copycating the opponent's every move! Genius! He gets his ass kicked and the moral of the story is that the most obvious easy ways are bound to have been tried before and if they're not that popular it's probably because they don't really work. That said, there's a particular crutch that Edwards teaches you how to use in the book that should fit you quite well, I'm sure you'll know what I mean when you read about it.

Drawing, unlike learning Japanese as a second language, is something that has been studied over thousands of years all over the world. While books like Edwards' can ease the process somewhat (and the ideas presented in the book aren't entirely new either, only in a different context, something that Edwards herself emphasizes), or you could say, get you to understand what the actual process IS, there's no fail-safe shortcut. You want to get good at drawing, you pour a lot of time into drawing. If you want freedom in your drawing, the safest way is drawing real life and you'll find some very good arguments from Edwards why this is so important.

If you're thinking you can have drawing just as a bonus while reading manga, then I'd suggest you skip it altogether. If you don't somehow find passion for drawing itself then what's the point? Nowadays anyone can get a deviantart account and show the world their drawings, everyone is used to seeing amazing art just by going online and making a few clicks. By learning to draw manga, supposing you were able to, you're not going to make money and neither are you going to impress anyone (except maybe 5-13 year olds who think 'mangas are cool'). So if it's not an ends to itself, what's the point? Learn to love it - Edwards' book might help you with this - or give it up.

^ I've read the book, but I don't know what crutch you're talking about. Drawing upside down?

Yeah, I don't think copying manga is working out. Not only can I never copy the lines just right for some reason, it's just not fun, so I don't feel like doing it.

bowserevilking Wrote:My theory is, since drawing can be seen as a kind of language, you can learn it by imitating the 'great speakers', so to speak. I'm thinking that you can copy (not trace) the drawings of artists who's style you like, so that you can see exactly how they draw eyes, faces, ears, etc.

I think this is a good way to learn. And not only a good way to learn how to draw, but to learn pretty much anything. First you need lots of input, so that you can tell what's good from what's not, then you selectively copy the good stuff.

The only problem with this strategy is that it's hard to replicate something when you don't have the blueprints, unless you're already an expert. (Imagine someone trying to learn how to cook by eating a lot). That's why I think learning the theory is also important. It will give you the fundamentals you need to replicate the great works you see.

I don't think the Go/drawing analogy works very well. Drawing a picture or a still life or whatever exactly as you see it, this really does build drawing skills. It's not like copying your opponent in a board game at all.

bowserevilking Wrote:Yeah, I don't think copying manga is working out. Not only can I never copy the lines just right for some reason, it's just not fun, so I don't feel like doing it.

If you're ready to give up because you aren't automatically good at it... well, you either need to change your attitude (because you'll never be automatically good at drawing anything, you need a lot of practice), or give up drawing. Maybe you just like the idea of drawing and not the actual process? Of course, you can try drawing something else, just remember, you'll be struggling with it for a long time before there will be any real results.

Right, thanks.

yukamina Wrote:I don't think the Go/drawing analogy works very well. Drawing a picture or a still life or whatever exactly as you see it, this really does build drawing skills. It's not like copying your opponent in a board game at all.

I could have been more clear, but I didn't mean it at that level. What I meant was the whole thing with coming up with something that and think "oh man this is GREAT why isn't everyone doing this even though it's so obvious" referring to the idea about boosting your artist skills purely by copying other artists. Of course, I admit that the analogy wasn't very good even though I thought so first. I am also aware that some learning takes place when copying and that it's a well-used method, but not as a stand-alone learning strategy. Fail-analogy is fail, sorry about the misunderstanding.

bowser, re "crutch": oh. huh. well what i meant was the transparent board that Edwards tells you to use. though maybe that was only in the newer edition. oh and i forgot something important, if you do decide you want to pursue artistic ambitions, all the luck to you! a lot of people find drawing very rewarding and it can really be worked on throughout a whole lifetime.