There's something I'm slightly confused about, although I'm sure you guys can provide a straightforward explanation. I'm wondering how the past participle is expressed in Japanese. For example, if I wanted to say "Have not written much.", what's the correct grammatical form? I was thinking through several variations that don't seem to quite fit:

あまり書かなかった。　(Didn't write much)
あまり書いていない。　(Is/am not writing much)
あまり書いていなかった。　(Was not writing much)
あまり書かれていない。　(Is not being written much?)

Or something else? Thanks in advance!

Actually you already have the right answer: あまり書いていない

In Japanese, unlike English, a grammar pattern may express different grammar tenses depending on the context. In this case, 書いていない can mean BOTH "I am not writing" as well as "I havent written". The interpretation will depend on the context as well as in the use of other modifiers. Actually, when I read あまり書いていない I tend to think in the perfect rather than in the continuous because of the あまり part. Due to its semantic system, in Japanese (and even in English) something like "I am not writing much" sounds a bit weird. I mean, when you are writing, in that very moment, you are writing characters one by one, so semantically speaking it does not makes sense to talk about quantities or "how much I am writing". Thus, あまり書いていない is more likely to be interpreted as "I havent written much"

I believe that by "past participle" you actually mean "present perfect". Obviously, there's not a clean correspondence between Japanese and English grammar, but I think in the majority of cases, the English perfect tenses would translate into the Japanese progressive tenses, i.e. the second item in your list:

A: 作文はうまくいっている？
B: まだあまり書いていない。

I see, so the interpretation is context-dependent. This crossed my mind before, but I couldn't see how to reconcile the different possible meanings.

So I guess in the same vein, if I wanted to say, "I have eaten the apple.", for a literal translation it would become:

（私は）りんごを食べている。　(I have eaten the apple / I am eating the apple).

What are some of the contextual clues that would indicate the "I have eaten" meaning rather than "I am eating"? I guess I'm still somewhat unclear on how to distinguish between the two.

Now that you mention it, I should probably correct what I said earlier and say that the progressive is used for expressing negative perfect tense concepts.

In the affirmative case, there isn't a distinction between have eaten and ate when you're talking about something mundane like eating an apple, so in this case it would just be:
りんごを食べた。

Note that for "have you ever..." type concepts, there's ことがある.

Guoguodi Wrote:I see, so the interpretation is context-dependent. This crossed my mind before, but I couldn't see how to reconcile the different possible meanings.

So I guess in the same vein, if I wanted to say, "I have eaten the apple.", for a literal translation it would become:

（私は）りんごを食べている。　(I have eaten the apple / I am eating the apple).

What are some of the contextual clues that would indicate the "I have eaten" meaning rather than "I am eating"? I guess I'm still somewhat unclear on how to distinguish between the two.

There are countless ways to direct a sentence to one or another interpretation. I think adverbs would make the work most of the cases. As I explained before, with あまり the progressive form makes little sense. 最近 (recently), will also refer to the present perfect just as 今 (now) will call for the progressive. According to my experience with native speakers, the construction ~ている　is used much more frequently as perfect present than as progressive, which is makes me wonder why on earth ~ている is taught first as the equivalent of the English to be + ~ing in most of textbooks and grammar courses. The only explanation I can come with is that the progressive is quite easy to understand for English speakers.

Thanks guys for your explanations. Had no idea that ている is not simply limited to the continuous/progressive as I initially learned. Good call on the "past participle" mistake -- "have written" is actually in the present-perfect tense as you said.

JimmySeal Wrote:Now that you mention it, I should probably correct what I said earlier and say that the progressive is used for expressing negative perfect tense concepts.

In the affirmative case, there isn't a distinction between have eaten and ate when you're talking about something mundane like eating an apple, so in this case it would just be:
りんごを食べた。

Note that for "have you ever..." type concepts, there's ことがある.

It's possible for that meaning to occur in the affirmative as well. リンゴを食べている can mean "I have eaten the apple", although it's less likely than the progressive meaning for this sentence, I think. But especially with もう you see this a lot.

It is important to note that if you're planning on using the -ている construction for the present perfect that you can only use intransitive verbs. As such, りんごは食べている can only mean "I am eating an apple" (a currently ongoing action or state), or "I eat apples"(a generality, similar to the 事がある usage). To use a transitive verb, you must use -てある. These two forms actually indicate a resultant state, meaning "(subject/object) is currently in a state resulting from the action of the verb" which is very similar to the present perfect in English. You could say "あれが始まっている" to mean "it has begun" as this uses an intransitive verb. A simpler way would be to use the simple past た form as it encompasses simple past and present perfect. I hope this clears things up a little more!

That's not quite right. Vている　has several uses/meanings. 2 distinct uses are:

- resultant state (as you describe) - continues in the state resulting from the verb
- experiential (resultant) state. This can be a transitive verb. eg I have read the book 3 times. (I exist having read the book 3 times.)

Japanese is different than English in that it can use a past adverb with a phrase describing the later resulting experiential state. eg A literal translation would sound odd in English: I have been to Japan 3 times last year.

Edit: One comment on an earlier post in this thread: there are subtle differences between Vた　and Vている　when used to describe a past event similar to English present perfect.

That is correct. But for describing resultant states ている is used for intransitive verbs only, while　てある is used for transitive verbs. They both have the same meaning as far as resultant states, but grammatically one is used for intransitive, while the other is used for transitive.

gibbet Wrote:That is correct. But for describing resultant states ている is used for intransitive verbs only, while　てある is used for transitive verbs. They both have the same meaning as far as resultant states, but grammatically one is used for intransitive, while the other is used for transitive.

That's not correct. てある with transitive verbs means that some else has done the action -- either you don't know who, or it's not important (sort of like a passive in English). I believe that in some cases you can use it for your own action but if that's done it deliberately avoids stating yourself as the subject. This would only be done in certain specific cases, usually for politeness. If you're just saying "I've already seen that movie" you can't use 見てある, it has to be 見ている.

So without any other context:
お昼ごはんがもう頼んである。 Lunch has already been ordered.
お昼ごはんをもう頼んでいる。 I have already ordered lunch.

りんごは食べている can mean either "I am eating an apple" or "I have eaten the apple", as I said in the post 2 years ago above this. The second meaning is less common without the もう to make it explicit, but the もう is not absolutely required.

It is true that てある only goes with transitives, but it's not simply the transitive counterpart of ている.

The reason that -ている is used with intransitive verbs is because it's describing an autonomous action(which all intransitive verbs do). An apple can't eat itself, but the passive form of 食べる(食べられる) can be used because an apple being eaten is autonomous(it is a state that happens to the apple, and thus does not require a subject).
The -てある form is describing the result of a heteronomous action, which requires a performer of said action. As you stated, the subject is left out because the focus is on the resultant state. However, with -てある, the direct object can be postmarked by either が(which implies that the doer is unknown) or を(which implies that the speaker is the doer. What's interesting is that -ている(resultant) can use inanimate objects as the subject(still with an intransitive verb), to more colorfully describe the resultant state.

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But what's the nuance/difference between this and just saying もう頼んだ/注文した ???

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Arupan Wrote:リンゴは食べている sounds strange. The first thing that would come into my mind is that the one eating is the apple itself (which nobody mentioned as an explanation)

は doesn't imply that the previous noun is the subject.

Quote:"お昼ごはんがもう頼んである。 Lunch has already been ordered."　→　While this sentence is grammatically correct, it doesn't make much sense. It would imply that the one doing the ordering is actually lunch.

"Lunch has already been ordered"　→　お昼ご飯はもう頼まれている／注文されている

In standard grammar you have to use が with it (or は etc) and it does not imply in any way that the noun is the subject of the main verb -- the が connects to the ある. EDIT: Google has a lot of hits for を頼んである that seem to be native speakers; perhaps this is an area of the language that's changing because it seems to make more sense to use the を. I also found some uses of Xは頼んである that seemed to say X was the one ordering but that's also not a standard usage.

Passives are usually not used with inanimate objects in Japanese.

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Are you really trying to (condescendingly) school yudan on Japanese grammar? He's got a PhD in Japanese linguistics or something like that. You also posted a lengthy response to an OP from 2.5 years ago.

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Arupan Wrote:リンゴは食べている sounds strange. The first thing that would come into my mind is that the one eating is the apple itself (which nobody mentioned as an explanation)

Japanese is heavily context-dependent. An interpretation that makes no sense should usually not be coming to your mind at all, let alone first.

Apples don't eat. That's why no one else came up with that interpretation.

Arupan Wrote:So?

'Cause you're also wrong. リンゴは食べている is just fine. As yudan said, は does not imply that the noun before it is the subject.

This is an invalid analysis:

Quote:頼んである with 頼んでおいた in your example it would look like this　→　お昼ご飯がもう頼んでおいた. However you look at it, the one ordering here is actually lunch.

You can't just swap out ある for おいた to make your point. In a -てある construction, the object of the verb takes the particle が. This is not the case for -ておく.

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Good luck with your studies.



Maybe, if you could follow the rules we wouldn't have to. Take a break.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=180

Quote:Courtesy

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Admin: to clarify, tokyostyle has been issued a one week ban by a moderator. One-week bans are intended to allow the person to cool off and hopefully put things back into perspective.

tokyostyle Wrote:but Jimmy and Vemple you two in particular are the lowest kinds of internet bullies.

I am hurt (no sarcasm intended).