I am sure that this has happened to a lot of you in Japan, and maybe even happened to some living in other countries. You are studying a kanji or a compound or a particular kanji when a Japanese person walks up (I will use the uncommon reading and compound 流転(るてん) for example) and says " 'るてん', wow that is a hard kanji/compound. You don't have to learn that." Or "You are studying kanji I can't even read" etc. In the early days of my studies I used to buy into that. WooHoo something from this cryptic language I don't need to learn. As life went I my feelings about Japanese changed. I started asking questions like "you just read it! if I want to learn to read like a native, doesn't that prove I need to learn it." After I started asking that question I got all manner of strange answers. I got "yes but I wouldn't want to learn it if I wasn't forced to", "but its to hard for a foreigner to learn such difficult kanji", "why do you want to read like a native?" or even "good point, keep it up". I started to wonder if it was Japanese culture that created and fed statements like "you will only need to learn X kanji to be good".

For a brief few months, I thought, "why do they do that, are they afraid I, a foreigner, will master their language?" It actually made me angry. I started to get a "screw you I will master you language to a higher proficiency than an average learner and rub it in your face" attitude. Then one day I was with an American and a Japanese friend of mine and the Japanese person asked, "Do you say X?" I replied, "No, we never say X." My friend said, "Yes we do we say X all the time." I was about to say, "OK, he says X but you don't need to remember it." I stopped myself and it was at that point that my mind took off. I was just trying to make my Japanese friends life easier, but I did understand what my American friend said, so shouldn't my Japanese friend try to do so too?

I am just curious what other people think. Are statements like these based on culture, personal opinion, or actually accurate. What experiences have you had. For those much closer to native level proficiency, what attitudes do you encounter studying the more difficult nuances of Japanese? I find the statements to be extremely counter motivational. Since that time I caught myself, I always try to say, "Yes I can understand that."

流転! Ah, I love it when I have to look up the definitions of a J>E dictionary in an English dictionary! I like how it rolls off the tongue.

On subject, if it exists, why not? While it is true that you, in fact, will never see it, on those rare instances when fate throws you a curveball, you'll be ready, right? You don't need to know all the idioms and phrases of Shakespeare's English (and, in fact, most natives don't), or the English of the Roarin' Twenties, but you're more rich if you do. At least, that's how I see it.

Darn, this is an interesting topic, but I need to study! I can say that no Japanese person or teacher has ever said that I could be excused from learning anything no matter how esoteric. I am Japanese American and have the correct gestures and accent; I am just missing the actual language. Given my advanced age and situation this is a pain in the ??? sometimes.
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I've had this a few times too.

I think that people who say things like "Wow, that's a really difficult kanji" are actually just trying to compliment you on the hard work that you're putting in to learning their language. By saying things like that, they may be thinking that your thoughts will be along the lines of "Great, I'm studying advanced words, I must be advanced in my Japanese learning". I think they're just trying to show that they're impressed. They also may be trying to make your life easier for you like you said.

However you interpret it, I definitely wouldn't get angry. I'm pretty sure that most Japanese people will be delighted if you master their language. I totally understand why it made you angry and it's the same reason for a lot of frustrations that foreigners have in Japan. It's the classic inside and outside, 内 and 外, Japanese and Foreigner barrier that goes up. "We should know this because we're Japanese, you're not Japanese, you never will be and you don't need to worry about it. Don't trouble yourself." At least that's how it feels, no? In any culture or country there's a native and foreigner barrier but I think the distinction is different and more acute in Japan. Keigo is after all based on the "inside and outside your group" mentality. Family members: inside <-> guests: outside, work colleagues: inside <-> customers: outside, Japanese people: inside <-> foreigners: outside. The words you use and the actions that you take change depending on the outside-inside dynamic of the time. Very interesting but sometimes heartbreaking for a foreigner who just wants to be accepted.

Maybe I've taken things a bit too far in this interpretation, let me know if I have.

Oops, you might try saying something more along the lines of, "I have been studying kanji 5 hours every day for 2 years. I am still not very good. But thank you for helping/caring for me. Oshiete itadaite arigatoo gozaimasu. (others help me here please!). It's not the words that are important, but you want to convey that you are simultaneously unendingly diligent and humble at the same time. I have a hard time getting my hakujin friends to understand "we" or is it "they" feel about people who work hour after hour, day after day, year after year towards perfecting their skills.

In lieu of "good luck," I shall wish that you "study till pass out."

Laura Wrote:I have a hard time getting my hakujin friends to understand "we" or is it "they" feel about people who work hour after hour, day after day, year after year towards perfecting their skills.

I thought most cultures held diligence in high regard. Also, could you clarify your overall post a little for me. I am not sure I understand how this relates directly to the issue of cultural and emotional attitudes toward a foreigner studying Japanese and in particular kanji.

I'm sorry, but I also found the post hard to understand. Why did you say oops?

I said oops because I felt bad for not trying to address the question. I can only speak for the cultures I know, but the Japanese people I know which includes, of course, my blood relatives who live both in the US and Japan, have more than simply high regard for diligence. They have an emotional connection to it, a sort of love. In western culture (could be wrong here) it sometimes seems to me that people brag that they are able to do something without effort. If you have to work to hard at something maybe you are not as smart or talented or something. I read an interview with a famous Japanese choreographer recently where she is talking about a young dancer who practices into the night after everyone else goes home. The choreographer talks about being worried about the girl, but she is clearly impressed and feels a great connection to her. The girl is not the best dancer in the troupe, but she is given the lead role. Diligence is one of the characteristics which binds Japanese people together and makes one part of the group. It is more highly valued than achievement in many situations.

I don't know how to be politically correct and try to be helpful. I'm assuming that what you want is for the Japanese people in your life to include you and actively support your efforts to master the language at a high level of proficiency. And, the way your post read to me was that you might be coming off as showing off--any display of prowess is generally followed by a display of humility and displays of prowess are inherently suspect much of the time. So it possible that it is your foreign behavior which elicits the responses you get. I think you are saying you read a kanji when a Japanese person walks up while you are in the process of studying or reading. I am sure you know this already, but the Japanese way of displaying ones knowledge would be to say something like, "I think it's ruten" "It looks like ruten" "Is it ruten?"

Sorry if this is off topic.
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Laura Wrote:I don't know how to be politically correct and try to be helpful. I'm assuming that what you want is for the Japanese people in your life to include you and actively support your efforts to master the language at a high level of proficiency. And, the way your post read to me was that you might be coming off as showing off--any display of prowess is generally followed by a display of humility and displays of prowess are inherently suspect much of the time. So it possible that it is your foreign behavior which elicits the responses you get. I think you are saying you read a kanji when a Japanese person walks up while you are in the process of studying or reading. I am sure you know this already, but the Japanese way of displaying ones knowledge would be to say something like, "I think it's ruten" "It looks like ruten" "Is it ruten?"

Sorry if this is off topic.
Best

I suppose I can see how it may have seemed, to a westerner such as yourself, Laura, like showing off but honestly it wasn't. I don't believe that the people here in Japan who view my studies think of it that way at all. They are always supportive never suspicious. That word just happens to come up very, very early in RTK2 (Frame 15 actually). I remember it basically for the same reason Megaqwerty mentioned it. The English definition sent me to an English dictionary, twice actually. I use it as an example because it can be easily read by most Japanese people I have asked about it (in an attempt to gauge if the word had any use in Japanese because the English word didn't seem all that useful). I just needed an example. To be more specific no one ever said anything to me about this particular compound until I asked. There have been times, however, when people have looked over my shoulder to read what was on my computer screen in the way I explained in my first post.

The reason I even brought this topic up is recently in the forums, there has been a lot said about what you need and don't need to study. It is often printed in books as well. I was just curious if the root of this statement was culture, opinion, or actually fact. If a native can do something shouldn't I strive to do it too? At the same time I wanted to address the issue of 内 and 外 because I actually don't think what I experienced was a manifestation of this extremely complex issue; I did misread it as such at one point though. I wanted to get that possibly out of the way quickly as I felt it could easily pollute the discussion I was looking for. I suggest that perhaps it could be a culture of accommodation that leads kind book writers to say "its ok to just do up to X" this in turn could, perhaps, get perpetuated in a sort of trickle down effect. At the same time, I used my own English example to point out that I do the same thing. So if my culture and Japanese culture are different yet we both make the same statement, does that mean "What you need to know" is a matter, not of culture, but of personal opinion or is it fact?

I hope this adds a little clarity to my post.

commenting on the OP:

Quote:For a brief few months, I thought, "why do they do that, are they afraid I, a foreigner, will master their language?" It actually made me angry. I started to get a "screw you I will master you language to a higher proficiency than an average learner and rub it in your face" attitude. Then one day I was with an American and a Japanese friend of mine and the Japanese person asked, "Do you say X?" I replied, "No, we never say X." My friend said, "Yes we do we say X all the time." I was about to say, "OK, he says X but you don't need to remember it." I stopped myself and it was at that point that my mind took off. I was just trying to make my Japanese friends life easier, but I did understand what my American friend said, so shouldn't my Japanese friend try to do so too?

If someone tells you that what you are looking at is a hard kanji/compound that you don't need to learn, you will probably find a few other people in the room that would disagree with that person and tell you that the word is used. much like your American friend had a different opinion to you.

The situation as I see it in Japan is very different to the west in regards to how many non-Japanese are in the media this has an effect on how people that look non-japanese (white, black etc) are perceived. I live in Japan and watch TV almost every day, but there are very few "non-japanese" that appear in dramas, let alone the news. This is clearly because the amount of people from different cultures born and raised in Japan from birth (thus fluent) are few.

Compare this to the UK where we have whole sections of cities with asian or black communities. In short, the UK is much more multicultural that japan and as such, we don't look at someone who is not white and think..."now wait a minute, this guy isn't English (based on appearance alone), now, what should I say as a greeting? can he speak English?" It just isn't done. we expect people in England to speak English. This is not the case in Japan though. I think that the perception is that only Japanese people speak Japanese. But why? there must be something very special about the language and if you are not born as a Japanese, you will cannot learn it. for more info about this type of stuff have a look at 日本人論.If a foreigner is encountered that can speak just some Japanese, he is considered to be the exception. This is the country that has whole TV shows dedicated to reading difficult kanji compounds etc. so if they are having trouble with the language, "how could someone like you stand a chance?" etc.

I've rambled on a bit here, but I think it is important to understand why people have the idea that it is impossible for a foreigner to learn japanese.

Quote:I hope this adds a little clarity to my post.

It does. Very interesting. I don't think my post contributed to the discussion your looking for, sorry about that.

So am I right in saying that the question you'd like to address is "What determines what you need to know?"

I have come across situations like this a few times, but not so much lately.

For one, I used occasionally to ask my principal for help with trouble spots in books I was reading. But anytime I would ask him about something a bit offensive (e.g. これでもくらえ - "eat this!"), he would just say, "Oh, you shouldn't use that word" and refuse to translate or explain it any further. Yeah, I'm probably not going to use it, but if it's in a book I'm trying to read I'd like to know what it means.

Another time I was talking to a Japanese person about a mutual friend and she was mentioning his medical condition, though the English word didn't occur to her so she said, とうにょうびょう. I replied "diabetes?" And she said "Yes! Why do you need to know that word? You don't need to know that word!" and on like that for about a minute.
(as a side note, I actually didn't know the word とうにょうびょう but having seen my friend injecting insulin once, and piecing together my knowledge that 糖 is pronounced とう and 尿 is pronounced にょう, I was able to figure out the word, and its kanji without ever having seen it before. That was an exciting moment.)


But I've also had times when I was on the other side of the looking glass. The Asahi Shimbun produces a paper for English learners with explanations of tough words after the articles. But the thing is that these articles are made intentionally contrived in order to include tricky idioms. I look at them and think, "people shouldn't be focusing on learning these stupid cliches; these articles are annoying and I can barely read them." So in a way, I do feel a frustration when Japanese people know obscure vocabulary and expressions and yet can barely carry on a basic conversation. So maybe it's not so much a matter of, "You don't need to know that word," as much as, "You don't need to know that word, yet."

yorkii Wrote:I live in Japan and watch TV almost every day, but there are very few "non-japanese" that appear in dramas, let alone the news.

Are you advocating a move towards having a "token gaijin"? ;-)

laura Wrote:Oshiete itadaite arigatoo gozaimasu.

I don't think this is correct. itadaku is from the perspective of the speaker, not the listener. It's like saying "i received teaching (by someone, not necessarily you). thank you". If you want to express a polite thank you, perhaps you want 教えてくださってありがとうございます。which shows that the listener is the one that gave you the teaching.

Quote:Diligence is one of the characteristics which binds Japanese people together and makes one part of the group. It is more highly valued than achievement in many situations.

That may or may not be the case, but it's besides the point if someone doesn't realise the amount of diligence required to learn a foreign language. It's perfectly natural in Japan to have advanced sentences simply taken for granted, and then given lots of praise for the simplest of sentences. 日本語上手！ is a phrase many foreigners are familiar with.

Quote:I am sure you know this already, but the Japanese way of displaying ones knowledge would be to say something like, "I think it's ruten" "It looks like ruten" "Is it ruten?"

I don't think it's got anything to do with that. There are definitely foreigners in Japan who don't understand the concept of modesty and tentative expression of knowledge, but I don't think it really applies in this case. In fact, it's an example of the opposite: the Japanese person came up, read the word and announced without hesitation "you don't need to learn that.". Perhaps dilandau should have told them that real Japanese people express things more reservedly, and that in order to behave like proper Japanese person, they should have prefaced their sentence with "I think it's ruten" or "It looks like ruten" or "Is it ruten?"? ;-)

resolve Wrote:

laura Wrote:Oshiete itadaite arigatoo gozaimasu.

I don't think this is correct. itadaku is from the perspective of the speaker, not the listener. It's like saying "i received teaching (by someone, not necessarily you). thank you". If you want to express a polite thank you, perhaps you want 教えてくださってありがとうございます。which shows that the listener is the one that gave you the teaching.

Pretty sure it's fine either way:

教えてくださってありがとうございます。
Thank you for teaching me that.
(lit. I am thankful that you taught that to me.)


教えていただいてありがとうございます。
Thank you for teaching me that.
(lit. I am thankful for having been taught that.)

Interesting! I just gave my girlfriend a call to check, and she couldn't give me a straight answer. So she asked her family and they had a chat about it and couldn't agree either! I guess it depends on the subject of the sentence which is not stated in either of the examples. I'll let you know when she gets back to me.

I think the scenario is a prevalent cultural charateristic. Because of lack of exposure in an almost completely homogenous society, the Japanese tend to have a general mindset that aspects of their language and culture are too difficult for foreigners to learn. I believe it's also because they themselves struggled with it as a child, or even into adulthood. (And some poorly educated/close-minded Japanese perceive the Japanese themselves uniquely capable of many things and/or that foreigners are quite incapable. They're easily identifiable from their comments and behavior to you or about you. Sadly, every country has them of course...).

The prime example every foreigner knows is "すごい！お箸上手！Amazing! You use chopsticks so well!" For a long time I thought it was only Japanese making a polite compliment, but after many conversations with a variety of people about it, I've find that many are truly impressed. Quite a few more adults than I ever expected couldn't use chopsticks correctly themselves.

Sooo, I think they say, "you don't need to know that" because they perceive that we are 1. struggling, and 2. doing so futilely, i.e. why learn such a thing when you can still live comfortably without it? I think they're showing a general concern about our well-being while 'visiting' their country. Non-racial Japanese will always be viewed as outsiders and temporary residents no matter the case. And as the Japanese are such hospitable people, they want us to enjoy ourselves, even if they mistakenly believe that ignorance is more enjoyable because it dodges effort.

dingomick Wrote:I think the scenario is a prevalent cultural charateristic. Because of lack of exposure in an almost completely homogenous society, the Japanese tend to have a general mindset that aspects of their language and culture are too difficult for foreigners to learn.

Could you expand on this? It's not something that I would have said. I don't follow how a homogeneous society implies Japanese people thinking that their language is too difficult for foreigners to learn.

dingomick Wrote:I think they're showing a general concern about our well-being while 'visiting' their country. Non-racial Japanese will always be viewed as outsiders and temporary residents no matter the case. And as the Japanese are such hospitable people, they want us to enjoy ourselves, even if they mistakenly believe that ignorance is more enjoyable because it dodges effort.

I agree. I think this is exactly what's happening.

resolve Wrote:Interesting! I just gave my girlfriend a call to check, and she couldn't give me a straight answer. So she asked her family and they had a chat about it and couldn't agree either! I guess it depends on the subject of the sentence which is not stated in either of the examples. I'll let you know when she gets back to me.

Interesting. I was totally with Jimmy since I've asked this question before and I was told that either form is fine. I'm surprised your girlfriend and her family couldn't answer straight away. Maybe there's some extra subtlety there.

In the end, ありがとうございます is just a fancy way of saying ありがたい (thankful), and so you need not literally say "I thank you for ...ing." A sentence that expresses "I am thankful that I received the favor of ..." is equally fine.

Google search for いただいてありがとう yields 2.1 million hits.

..and くださってありがとう has 2.6millon. ignoring kanji on either side (they're pratically equal), くださる is a little more common. from what i've been able to gather, it largely depends on the person and is thus more style than anything these days (though the dictionaries say that くださる is expressing thanks for a requested action whereas いただく is merely expressing thanks. I asked my girlfriend to ask a somewhat 偉い japanese teacher, and i'll let you know when she gets back to me.

resolve Wrote:a somewhat 偉い japanese teacher

I'm going to have to start that thread about mixing Japanese and English in your learning. ;-)

I'm sure you were joking, but it's incredibly common in Japan for foreigners to throw certain Japanese words into their English speech.

Eating at MacDonalds is quite common too. Not everyone thinks it's that good for you though. I think it's quite an interesting topic because opinions vary quite widely. For instance, I was interested that you took the trouble to switch to Japanese input and put the word in kanji rather than just write 'erai'.

It is quite common to use Japanese words in an English conversation in Japan if they are more efficient and one knows that the listening party will understand. It's a simple conservation of energy. It is also trivial to switch to Japanese input if you have your system configured correctly, and romaji is best avoided where possible.

While I'm sure you had the best intentions, I'm offended by you associating my usage of the Japanese language with a cheap and unhealthy burger joint, and it discourages me from posting further.

wrightak Wrote:Eating at MacDonalds is quite common too. Not everyone thinks it's that good for you though. I think it's quite an interesting topic because opinions vary quite widely. For instance, I was interested that you took the trouble to switch to Japanese input and put the word in kanji rather than just write 'erai'.

resolve Wrote:While I'm sure you had the best intentions, I'm offended by you associating my usage of the Japanese language with a cheap and unhealthy burger joint, and it discourages me from posting further.

resolve Looks like wrightak was simply trying to say that common doesn't necessarily mean good.

Mary Noguchi at Kanji Clinic refers to this as code switching. Is that a linguistic term? She suggests that her husband and kids do it all the time.

My wife and I often mix and match too.

Regarding the 偉い example above. If wrightak had asked that question of me, I would have replied that I prefer writing Japanese words in Japanese and sometimes Japanese words capture the essence of what you want to say better than English. To me, resolves statement was a typical example of this.