IceCream Wrote:

pudding cat Wrote:Moving to something slightly related to the original topic, has anyone ever looked at Japanese sign language?

I did some BSL and in the alphabet I could kind of see how the signs resembled the letters but with the Japanese I find it quite hard.

http://www.h-hope.net/ud/column/column2/image/img1.gif

that chart has gotta be wrong!!!?? Some of those are impossible hand movements... try り。 Either that, or you're supposed to make the signs the opposite way to the pictures, which is highly counterintuitive...

You're supposed to mirror them. Most pictures of signs or fingerspelling charts (which is what we have here) are intended to show you what it looks like when someone signs something to you. If you're watching your own hand everything will be reversed from what's on the chart.
That aside, the JSL vowels correspond directly to ASL vowels. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Now I can give S.E. a big FU by signing S.E.（せ） to them. Woo!

Quote:Despite attempts to paint it as the product of superior design, the development of the alphabet was incidental to the properties it is now lauded for, as I understand it from reading scholars on the development of writing systems. I think in that sense it was a great thing, but calls one to keep in mind that it's not objectively superior by any means.

There's no need for the snide tone, and I didn't say an alphabet was "superior design". I didn't even say the Latin alphabet was designed. I said they are easier to learn, and I didn't say that was an essential characteristic of a writing system, for that matter. I suppose I should have said, the ones of which I'm aware are easier to learn. There might be an exception out there.

As far as learning vocabulary, there's data showing that it's easier in Japanese, as far as I know. From what Japanese children can read at a given age, it seems to me that they don't progress as rapidly in reading as American kids do, as an example, for a variety of reasons, IMO.

Yes, that chart is 指文字 (ゆびもじ). I have speculated that this would be a useful learning tool for prelingually deaf learners of kana and kanji readings. The various work on modal differences in working memory for the deaf oriented towards the sensorimotor/visuospatial, as well as superior memory spans for both Chinese/Japanese readers/speakers (previously linked work by Margaret Wilson, Paul Miller, Mairead McSweeney, Mary Flaherty, Stanislas Dehaene) makes me think this way.

The different perspectives, re: mirrored representation, seem to be labeled Expressive vs. Receptive in the literature? Fluency in both is the ideal, it seems. I read about an educational software system using a webcam that is apparently intended to enhance this.

@bertoni - I didn't mean you. ;p I was referring to fusty old scholars from the 19th to mid-20th century (influential to this day, despite new research findings and theories). I thought it was relevant because tangentially this idea had been implied in various comments. It was triggered by your cultures not using logographs statement, which has been the beginning of many a mistaken view.

Ah, my apologies. Honestly, I don't view the Latin letters as a design, so much as a continuing experiment.

cntrational Wrote:

thecite Wrote:For the most part you can understand things with context, but often when you hear an ambiguous homophone the easiest thing to do is to think of the kanji, haven't you ever had a native say this to you or experienced it yourself?

I assume most natives wouldn't have the "kanji visualization" problem because they learnt the language before they learnt how to write, unlike us.

Perhaps not as often, but they certainly do.

bertoni Wrote:Ah, my apologies. Honestly, I don't view the Latin letters as a design, so much as a continuing experiment.

No need to apologize, I'm definitely snarky when it comes to this topic. It's a product of too many arguments, too much familiarity with pseudoscientific bigotry when it comes to writing systems. Not that anti-kanji folks have a monopoly on this. ;p

nadiatims Wrote:The Japanese writing system is as it is because of historical reasons. The reason it hasn't been scrapped and replaced probably has more to do with the fact it would be a massive pain in the arse to do so rather than any inherent superiority of the current system.

This. The Japanese writing system is famously messed up. I suspect erlog is alone in considering it an "extremely elegant solution". (Chinese characters themselves aren't the problem though)

Sorry guys, the rest is off-topic...but I wanted to respond to nadia's earlier question.

Quote:What's the connection between wanting a high vocabulary and delaying speaking?

Context - b/c it was pages ago. :-) Erlog had described kanji as essential to Japanese and anyone who disagrees as ignorant of Japanese linguistic history. Playing devil's advocate, I mentioned a subgroup of the back-to-kana movement, the real 国語　purists, who hope to rid Japanese of all the imported Chinese kanji words. It was probably clear that I consider this weird. I wanted to add that it's still worthwhile, however, for vocab learners to cultivate some awareness of which words are everyday use words (often the kun-yomi version) and which are generally limited to reading or formal situations (often the on-yomi compound versions).

It's not uncommon for intermediate learners to speak using grammar and vocab more suited to writing. I expect it's even more likely among those who rely heavily on SRS lists to acquire large amounts of kanji, vocab and grammar patterns before attempting to speak (per the input method?)

This forum leans heavily toward an intense upfront investment in kanji and vocab before reading, as well as reading before speaking. You asked why? Well, I can think of a few possible reasons: self-studiers, AJATT's RTK-first advice, hypnotizing SRS, the "input method", personality type (attracted to more systemized, quantitative methods), lack of spoken resources, etc. Not sure. What do you think?

As a comparison, some other approaches aim for basic communicative ability using a small vocabulary and basic grammar constructions and then gradually build those up. Spoken Japanese uses less vocab and grammar and some people find the ability to develop functional language skills earlier quite motivating. RTK would come after achieving an overall basic language proficiency. Learners who focus on grammar constructions and functional expressions relevant to spoken Japanese earlier are less likely to insert inappropriate written constructions later.

I'm not suggesting one approach is generally better (although I admit I don't think full RTK at the outset is a great idea). I'd like to think that most learners are tailoring their approach to their own goals. The hardcore SRSers are just easier to use as extreme examples ... :-)

Edit: I just noticed this. Perfect.

nadiatims Wrote:You and some other seem to be getting confused with 同意語(synonym) and 同音語(homophone). Presumedly this wouldn't happen if they were spelt out phonetically...

One other note about the homophones argument; the Kanji Kentei has a section where you have a sentence with one word in katakana (and underlined), and you have to write the kanji for it. For instance, here's an example from a level 3 prep book: シュクショウしてコピーをとった。 (The answer is 縮小) If it's really the case that homophones represent an insuperable barrier to reading Japanese in romaji, this type of exercise should be impossible.

Also, many people have brought up the fact that they have a hard time reading Japanese in all-kana. Native speakers do as well. But this is due to a lack of practice, not an inherent superiority of the current system. Native speakers also have a hard time reading the older kanji/katakana mix, but I think it would be hard to argue that the current use of hiragana is inherently superior to the older katakana system.

yudantaiteki Wrote:One other note about the homophones argument; the Kanji Kentei has a section where you have a sentence with one word in katakana (and underlined), and you have to write the kanji for it. For instance, here's an example from a level 3 prep book: シュクショウしてコピーをとった。 (The answer is 縮小) If it's really the case that homophones represent an insuperable barrier to reading Japanese in romaji, this type of exercise should be impossible.

Your argument only demonstrates that this is true for some homophones, not all homophones.

There are certainly cases where such an exercise would require some pretty contrived sentences:

1. ソウゾウリョクの豊富な人だね。
2. 健二君のソウゾウリョクはすごいね！

Now tell me which one is 想像力 and which is 創造力.

Thora Wrote:Erlog had described kanji as essential to Japanese and anyone who disagrees as ignorant of Japanese linguistic history. Playing devil's advocate, I mentioned a subgroup of the back-to-kana movement, the real 国語　purists, who hope to rid Japanese of all the imported Chinese kanji words. It was probably clear that I consider this weird. I wanted to add that it's still worthwhile, however, for vocab learners to cultivate some awareness of which words are everyday use words (often the kun-yomi version) and which are generally limited to reading or formal situations (often the on-yomi compound versions).

It's not uncommon for intermediate learners to speak using grammar and vocab more suited to writing. I expect it's even more likely among those who rely heavily on SRS lists to acquire large amounts of kanji, vocab and grammar patterns before attempting to speak (per the input method?)

Just because a few people in Japan have had this same terrible idea about their own language doesn't mean they ultimately know what they're talking about. As well, if their idea of just getting rid of the hindrance that are kanji was such a good one then why hasn't it happened? It's not something that would be difficult to have happen. They already have the alphabets that would replace kanji easily available. It seems that if kanji were as big a "problem" as some people insinuate then they would have naturally gone away after the standardization of katakana and hiragana.

Kanji haven't gone away though. They persist. Yes they're learned in the Japanese school system, but what's forcing people on 2ch to write using kanji if it's such a hassle? If they could just as easily eschew kanji then why haven't they?

I think people know why I think kanji persist. They're ultimately an extraordinarily useful and important piece of the language both technically and culturally.

Also, you've assumed the way I learn Japanese to be backward from what it actually is. I'm not an SRS junkie. In fact, I've never been able to have the patience to finish RTK, and I use SRS fairly sparingly for about 200 reviews a day. My usual SRS study regimen usually takes less than 90 minutes(including adding new cards). However, I tend to do double that amount of time listening to Japanese while looking up random words here or there as I deem them important. I'm not some slave to learning only writing as you insinuate.

zachandhobbes Wrote:I was just wondering if yudataiteki could elaborate on why he thinks romaji (or kana) should only be used.

I listed briefly the reasons earlier, I have basically three reasons:
- It would make it much easier and faster for native speakers to become literate (and probably increase the literacy rate although there aren't good enough statistics on this to say for sure)
- It would make it easier for foreigners to learn the language (not as important as the first reason but I think that in contemporary society, the more people that know your language, the better off you are)
- Using roman letters would significantly ease the problems that Japan has faced (and still does face) with adapting computer technology to work with their character set.

Once again, these are long-term benefits that I believe would result from the use of romaji instead of kanji/kana. However, I still want to emphasize that I am not saying that Japan should switch. Changing a writing system is very difficult. You don't see it happen very often, and when it does, it tends to be after wars, revolutions, pressure from foreign nations, and the like. Vietnam didn't switch to romanization until the French colonial period and afterwards. Korea didn't use Hangul universally until after independence from Japan. The Toyo Kanji list and gendai-kana zukai were created in the wake of WW2. The first serious discussions of script reform in Japan came during the Meiji restoration. Character simplification in China came after the Communists took power.

It's hard to imagine how such a change would actually be carried out by the Japanese government, even if they believed romaji were superior. It would require huge changes in the educational system, the publication industry, and many other aspects of life. While I do believe that it would result in long-term benefits, it would bring a great deal of short-term problems. It would have to be done in a way that first involved both romaji and the current system being used, with the current system being slowly phased out over time. Because this involves a host of cultural, political, and other extra-linguistic issues, I don't take a strong position on it. But it's not a simple matter of "they still use it, so it must be good" -- this would suggest that English's spelling system is perfectly suited for English and that the lack of spelling reform is proof that our spelling is superior to a more phonetic system.

Still on the homophone thing? Sheesh. What's there to argue? Replacing kanji would remove the semantic orthographic differentiation and increase homophonic error rates due to how the language structure has evolved, but that would be the least of the problems, you'd be removing something from a language that not only ought to be kept, but should be added to other languages because of the superiority of the combination of morphographs and phonographs! Homophones are not a problem in Japanese that need to be resolved, they're a co-evolving language feature. It's not an issue of intractable dilemmas or either/or equations.

Also, audiobook listening is going to be more prone to homophonic errors than spoken discourse because audiobooks are vocal representations of orthographic compositions of a mixed morphographic and phonographic system, so of course there will be a different contextual and lexical aspect to it than spoken language that's designed to be understood in a dialogic rather than indexical fashion.

Because we live in literate societies and not oral societies, not only will you be likely to have a lexicon that's wed to text, but as Coulmas mentions, because homophones are mostly ‘Sino-Japanese’ and ‘bookish’, you'll be more able to rely on learned orthographic knowledge to distinguish homophones during listening.

Edit: @Thora Did you read those papers in HBPK, #73-76? Interesting stuff.

Thora Wrote:I mentioned a subgroup of the back-to-kana movement, the real 国語　purists, who hope to rid Japanese of all the imported Chinese kanji words. It was probably clear that I consider this weird.

Thanks for those links BTW, interesting read.

erlog Wrote:Just because a few people in Japan have had this same terrible idea about their own language doesn't mean they ultimately know what they're talking about.

Who? The 日本語　Renaissance movement that want to protect the purity of Japanese　by reverting to kana and reducing Chinese origin words? Did you interpret my "there are some...um interesting sites" and "oh joy" as my endorsement of this stuff as the solution? Did the "taking an even longer term view" (as in 1500 years!) not alert you that something odd was afoot? Did the brackets, tone and "pure Japanese" not hint that it might be an aside about a rather fringe group to make some smaller point (about the kanji as essential argument)? Do we know who is behind that group? Do we care?

Experts who have weighed in on the more mainstream topic of script reform include linguists, educators, computer wizards, archivists, artists, etc. Why do you insist that they're all dummies?

Quote:As well, if their idea of just getting rid of the hindrance that are kanji was such a good one then why hasn't it happened? It's not something that would be difficult to have happen.

oh? Even kanji abolitionists recognize the massive upheaval and complications involved in such a major script reform.

One thing I think about is the next generation not being able to read any past textbooks, government publications, novels, family documents, newspaper archives, academic papers, internet stuff, reference books, etc etc. Will someone pay to convert all of it? Will we hire specialized researchers for everything? Will we create two classes of literacy? (Korea is experiencing some of these issues according to my former Korean classmates in Japan.)

Quote:Yes they're learned in the Japanese school system, but what's forcing people on 2ch to write using kanji if it's such a hassle?

Again, the issues include future education policy, access to information, culture, techology, global communication. Policy won't turn on the fact that kanji-educated 2chers today use kanji.(?) I think you need to widen your perspective a bit.

Quote:Also, you've assumed the way I learn Japanese to be backward from what it actually is. I'm not an SRS junkie. [...] I'm not some slave to learning only writing as you insinuate.

huh? what made you think it was about you? "insinuating"? sounds evil. As already explained, it was a lighthearted response to thecite about eliminating Chinese origin words. Here it is:

I Wrote:But you know....come to think of it.... I suspect some the hardcore-kanji-vocab-SRS-folks here might end up suppressing a few 10,000s of those words in favour of a few nice soft yamato kotoba when they finally decide to try speaking... haha ;-)

It's possible I'm completely forum tone deaf, but I assumed the "haha" and ";-)" would convey "don't take this too seriously" (ie not evil). And the "a few 10,000 words" would be an obvious exaggeration. I mean, how many folks are celebrating their 80,000-word vocabularies? I figured the "hardcore-kanji-vocab-SRS-folks" would be a non-offending recognizable archtype around here. I didn't know or assume anything about you or your study habits. (You might want to chill with the drama queen stuff.)

How about taking a look at another language?

This language requires learners to memorize over twenty abstracts squiggly shapes. Not too many, cool, but there's a catch. Each of those squiggles stands for a different sound, but depending on the context the sounds can be completely different from the "standard" sound assigned to the squiggle. Not only that but there are actually four forms of the squiggles, a normal form used most of the time, a fancy form used only at special times, and an archaic form of both that is rarely used but still needs to be known. Once you memorize the squiggles that still doesn't mean you're ready to read or even understand the language. Now you need to start putting the squiggles together, following rules that...may or may not actually apply. Depending on how the squiggles go together their sounds may change, or even if they make a sound at all. Most squiggle combination need at least four or five squiggles, and one of the longest needs 30, getting even one squiggle wrong can render your combination incomprehensible. And to be able to read fluently you need to know between 10-15,000 squiggle combination, and just because you can "sound out" a squiggle combination doesn't mean you read it right, nor does it mean you know what it means. Once you've memorized your 10,000 combinations, you still have to learn what order those combinations go in in order to make something that can actually be read.

Fun! XD

It's perfectly justified, darkauras, because I have some papers about the magic of semantic-phonetic here! What, you say that they go against all mainstream linguistics, psychology, and throught? Nonsense, it's clearly the foreign devils and their linguistic bigotry.

Surely this is linguistically the best language ever invented, darkaurus, because of the infinite amount of possibilities of sounds to form a word and literary perfectness of the squigglies.

Combined with the the "Seal of Completely Necessary Intense Difficulty As Denoted By People Who Already Know How to Use the Squigglies" truly this is a language that everyone must learn.

@cntrational - The science supports everything I've said, overwhelmingly, in every discipline related to language and writing. It is the contemporary viewpoint of scientists and theorists. I've cited repeated references to support my views.

As I said, though, I haven't and won't claim anyone has put it all together as I have. That's a nest0r original. ;p But the science on kanji, on grammar, on writing systems, on memory, on language itself, I have said nothing that isn't the dominant paradigm with regards to any of those components.

And yet somehow, life goes on and languages stay incomprehensibly 'inefficient'.

I guess that's life

Erm, I really doubt that, nest0r. I should know about this, given that I study real linguistics. Everything I've read places speech and sign as the prime form of language in thought. After distilling your long-winded rants, you say the exact opposite. Forgive me if I think your ideas are nonsense.

If you've followed the developments of the past, say, decade, then you've seen that language is considered a multimodal, emergent process between general cognitive functions and the language environment. Text and speech are considered to comprise this environment in an interactive process.

I've posted 100s of links to actual research to support these claims. You'll forgive me if your juvenile attitude and vague dismissals do little to convince me otherwise.

By the way, everything you've said about language in this thread strikes me as outdated and confused. You seem to be conflating concepts and manufacturing ideas ad hoc (fueled by skimming Wikipedia?) as you post them.

I have no interest in arguing with you, nest0r, since you're too far gone, as evidenced by our previous argument. I simply point out that you go against mainstream thought, so that everybody else is not misled into believing crank science.

Edit: You know what, this is just going to be a stressful argument. I'm out of here. I suggest anybody interested go pick up a book on linguistics and get some real facts.

What a truly eye opening couple of rebuttals... I'm now switching to Heiroglyph-like characters as a result of this enlightenment...

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