Alright i'm not much of an artist, and my english handwritting isn't really great either..
but i'm curious, how large does the average japanese write? and what slight variances are there?
Currently my biggest problem is i can't compress them suh as 警 (admonish)
And the worrysome horns in 首 and similiar
I have my stroke order down well though, so thats not a problem =D

The average Japanese person is probably going to write something looking like this

i hope that wasn't rebuke..

Oh size and not shape. I can't read.

I guess most people write about the size as an average 字帳

alright i finally found a sample, and judging from the straight lines that curved to the side (most likely from speed) i'll be ok.

from my personal experience they write relatively big. I mean I don't know how big you are writing but definitely not nearly as small as the computer screen characters you see. Not even close.

If you can't find a book that children use for kanji practice, or japanese writing paper (actually you should be able to find printable stuff online), try using graph paper and writing the kanji within four squares. In actuality many people write the characters a bit smaller, but that's generally the size that Japanese people use when practicing kanji.

GinRyuu Wrote:Alright i'm not much of an artist, and my english handwritting isn't really great either..
but i'm curious, how large does the average japanese write? and what slight variances are there?
Currently my biggest problem is i can't compress them suh as 警 (admonish)
And the worrysome horns in 首 and similiar
I have my stroke order down well though, so thats not a problem =D

You do not want to hear this but unless you grow up writing Japanese, your writing will always identifiably be foreign, and be misshapen. Nowadays, there is simply not enough chance as an adult to practice. In a sense, this is just like how Japanese over thirty always write English in cursive that immediately looks foreign to native writers, because only Americans over 60 hand write in cursive.

They will put up with it if they have to, but just like many American adults have illegible (to other American adults) handwriting, don't expect to have your Japanese handwriting be reliable for important communication.

Many Japanese people even pay people to hand write notes for them (end of the year greeetings and whatnot, where form and style matter.)

size of the squares? There's a lot of variability in size of graph paper mine are under 1" by 1"


also, i merely want to be legible, to a majority of people. not calligraphically perfect.

FYI i doubt anyone was crazy enough to think they write as small as the kanji on computer screens. i mean, you can't even see some of those

kapalama Wrote:don't expect to have your Japanese handwriting be reliable for important communication.

This is silly--it's very easy to write Japanese completely understandably, and often moreso than how native speakers commonly write when they're not thinking about making it look nice. What's hard is knowing variations from the forms used on computers if you don't use handwritten style fonts. Everybody will be able to read it if you write it like on a computer font though, without exception.

It's also much much easier to get near-perfect handwriting than speech with near-perfect pronunciation and intonation. There's just a little less motivation, because most people don't write very much by hand anymore.

The only time you'd ever have to worry about your handwriting would be when applying for a job. If you're that worried about it, get calligraphy lessons or something (easy to find if you live in Japan).

(I'm not sure of the graph paper size... but it seems that Japanese 原稿用紙 also varies by size. I can't find anything about a traditionally correct size, but would be interested if anyone else knows. I mean to write the kanji in four small graph paper squares, the ones that look like they're something like one centimeter each. Writing in a square is more about getting the parts of the kanji correct relative to each other anyway.)

I concur with Tzadeck, I find kapalama's conclusion to be simply untrue.

Especially if you write often during Anki reviews as part of muscle memory integration, post-RTK.

Download your kanji practice paper from Squire Starsquids blog. His are the best i have found for free so far. *click me*

Edit: This seems to be the answer you are looking for Tzadeck. The norm size seems to be B4 幅 257 mm、高さ 364 mm、 with 10 lines per page. But there are other sizes available as well. *wikipedia*

kapalama Wrote:In a sense, this is just like how Japanese over thirty always write English in cursive that immediately looks foreign to native writers, because only Americans over 60 hand write in cursive.

I'm 21 and I hand-write almost exclusively in cursive.

kapalama Wrote:You do not want to hear this but unless you grow up writing Japanese, your writing will always identifiably be foreign, and be misshapen. Nowadays, there is simply not enough chance as an adult to practice. In a sense, this is just like how Japanese over thirty always write English in cursive that immediately looks foreign to native writers, because only Americans over 60 hand write in cursive.

That's silly; it isn't too difficult for a foreigner to write as neatly as a native in everyday handwriting, just takes a little practice. Cursive, calligraphy etc on the other hand is more difficult. It goes both ways, I've encountered Japanese with neater handwriting than myself in English despite having written English all my life.

Oh, and don't get me started on 篆書. I can read the suckers, but they look like hell to learn to write.

vileru Wrote:

kapalama Wrote:In a sense, this is just like how Japanese over thirty always write English in cursive that immediately looks foreign to native writers, because only Americans over 60 hand write in cursive.

I'm 21 and I hand-write almost exclusively in cursive.

Ditto. Actually, I switched to 'print' during college because I couldn't read the notes I took during lectures (poor handwriting + haste + cursive = chicken-scratches). But, since graduating, I've returned to cursive. I was surprised how quickly the strokes came back after so many years.

kapalama Wrote:You do not want to hear this but unless you grow up writing Japanese, your writing will always identifiably be foreign, and be misshapen. Nowadays, there is simply not enough chance as an adult to practice. In a sense, this is just like how Japanese over thirty always write English in cursive that immediately looks foreign to native writers, because only Americans over 60 hand write in cursive.

That doesn't make sense, why would writing in a style used by older people make your handwriting look foreign? I write in cursive and not because I'm 'foreign' or over the age of 60. For me it's just quicker because you don't have to take your pen off the page so much.

kapalama Wrote:They will put up with it if they have to, but just like many American adults have illegible (to other American adults) handwriting, don't expect to have your Japanese handwriting be reliable for important communication.

As long as you can write neatly there's no reason your handwriting wouldn't be reliable.

pudding cat Wrote:

kapalama Wrote:You do not want to hear this but unless you grow up writing Japanese, your writing will always identifiably be foreign, and be misshapen. Nowadays, there is simply not enough chance as an adult to practice. In a sense, this is just like how Japanese over thirty always write English in cursive that immediately looks foreign to native writers, because only Americans over 60 hand write in cursive.

That doesn't make sense, why would writing in a style used by older people make your handwriting look foreign? I write in cursive and not because I'm 'foreign' or over the age of 60. For me it's just quicker because you don't have to take your pen off the page so much.

..because it's very uncommon for a young person to write cursive.
Most young Japanese people can't do it either since they stopped teaching cursive with yutori kyoiku, so most Japanese people who can do it are in their early 30s now. But still, I don't know any westerners younger than ~55 who write in cursive.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

pudding cat Wrote:

kapalama Wrote:You do not want to hear this but unless you grow up writing Japanese, your writing will always identifiably be foreign, and be misshapen. Nowadays, there is simply not enough chance as an adult to practice. In a sense, this is just like how Japanese over thirty always write English in cursive that immediately looks foreign to native writers, because only Americans over 60 hand write in cursive.

That doesn't make sense, why would writing in a style used by older people make your handwriting look foreign? I write in cursive and not because I'm 'foreign' or over the age of 60. For me it's just quicker because you don't have to take your pen off the page so much.

..because it's very uncommon for a young person to write cursive.
Most young Japanese people can't do it either since they stopped teaching cursive with yutori kyoiku, so most Japanese people who can do it are in their early 30s now. But still, I don't know any westerners younger than ~55 who write in cursive.

We obviously know quite different sets of people as all my friends are under the age of 25 and quite a few write in cursive My point though wasn't that it's an age thing so much as that 'Japanese over thirty always write English in cursive that immediately looks foreign to native writers' with the reason being that cursive is only used by Americans over the age of 60.

How can cursive look implicitly foreign? Why would it not just look like it had been written by an older person? Maybe I'm just being silly but it sounds like kapalama is saying that writing in cursive makes your handwriting look foreign which annoys me because I write in cursive.

Jarvik7 Wrote:But still, I don't know any westerners younger than ~55 who write in cursive.

Seriously? I was taught how to write cursive in primary (elementary) school, I think it's still taught in the UK now. We were also expected to write with fountain pens in secondary school (junior high), at least in english class. Again I believe this is still common.

I think cursive is actually the norm here, printing is for kids or foreigners.

I was also taught cursive in elementary in Canada, but I moved to America for middle school and was told to stop writing cursive by the teachers, since they couldn't read cursive very well. A couple years back I found some old homework and was astounded how good my handwriting used to be.

I think most westerners are taught cursive, but I don't think it's common to use it in daily life.

Apart from small children I have never met anyone who does not write in cursive. I'm suprised to hear it's not the norm in some parts of America.

Cursive's really common. I've never heard or experienced some sort of demographic-specific localization. If anything I'd expect pure cursive used for general purposes is an attribute of younger handwriting.

I think hybrid forms of cursive and print are the most common, across the board. I rarely see printed, individually separate letters, except on some official forms or tests that are scanned by computers or somesuch.

Whoa, where are all these cursive writers coming from? I learned cursive in primary school, had to use it on reports and stuff, and then told to cut it out in middle school, and haven't used it since.
In my experience, I've only met 1 person who under 25 who writes in cursive on a regular basis.

Of course, these hybrid-forms nest0r mentions are by and long the most common, but in a black and white distinction, I'd classify them as print. Writing lazily != cursive

I think most people use scribbly handwriting to reduce taking their pen off the page, but I don't know if you'd call that cursive.

That essentially is cursive isn't it? Joining up your letters so your pen doesn't leave the page. Maybe some people here mean more like 'copperplate' handwriting when they say cursive?