jmignot Wrote:Would anybody recommend practicing this type of "native looking" script early in the process of learning kanji, i.e. while studying RTK1? Is the "Yamasa" cursive script reproduced in one of the first posts in this thread possibly a good reference for that purpose? Or can someone suggest a better one?
To me, the proposed "abbreviated" form of 警 does not look straightforward at all : in particular, it does not seem to follow, even in a subliminal way, the recommended stroke order for the "flower" radical.

From my own experience and that of others speaking specifically of those handwriting examples on the forum, you don't need to study specific examples of handwriting, though you could always study stuff like 行書(?).

That kind of cursive in the Yamasa pictures, I feel, is just the organic product of knowing the kanji and then writing them relatively loosely and quickly. I think deviations from that general handwriting template, then, will not a be non-native deviation but will simply be idiosyncratic/individual, based on their personal style/foci. If you wanted you could probably find patterns to radicals and such, though, that might clue you in faster.

I recommend always trying to balance out speed and legibility with maintaining correct, consistent form when you're using muscle memory in reviews for kanji or words you're fuzzy on, and occasionally writing out entire sentences, if you want decent handwriting. Even within the kanji itself, a given radical section will be more linear than others, and this acts sort of like key frames or markers to parse the kanji.

It probably does matter what sort of templates you're using when first learning kanji and kana, and I think the fonts Heisig used that are more fluid are good templates that balance typewritten and more handwritten styles. An example of a logical element that arises from partial maintaining of the pen on the page, so to speak, is the formation of the り—you'll commonly see in fonts and handwriting that these two lines are connected by writing the left stroke down, then turning that hook into a light line which trails up and curves slightly to the right before writing the right stroke. Likewise the parallel horizontal strokes such as in 囲 get turned into zig-zags in that Yamasa font.

Anyway, in my opinion as long as it's legible and easy for you to write, preferably as a result of muscle memory integration into SRS reviews, which requires only a fraction of the time one might expect, then your handwriting is fine and will look like the average handwriting of anyone else who has followed a similar process, even if it was in a less condensed format. I think any deviation from that I just suggested (despite it being born up in my observations of foreign and native handwriting), will be idiosyncratic or will result from following specific calligraphic templates that can be learned where one wishes, which I'd recommed doing with the SRS. ^_^

jmignot Wrote:Would anybody recommend practicing this type of "native looking" script early in the process of learning kanji, i.e. while studying RTK1? Is the "Yamasa" cursive script reproduced in one of the first posts in this thread possibly a good reference for that purpose? Or can someone suggest a better one?

i think it's rare for anyone to use handwritten characters nowadays, i don't see why it would be helpful to learn. i think a lot of japanese struggle to read it too.

i was sitting with my japanese friend in japan at an izakaya talking about RTK. i pointed to a sign written in japanese handwritten cursive saying how i couldn't read it. he said he couldn't either.

touche!

remember that we're also in an age of keitai denwa and computers, and that most media is printed characters anyway, so if you want to get somewhere quickly in the language you'd be fine just learning script characters instead of spending time treading water with handwritten characters.

Regarding the kanji shortcuts, you can find some examples of different particles here

http://daigotorena.moo.jp/lesson/bushu-hen1.htm
http://daigotorena.moo.jp/lesson/bushu-hen2.htm
http://daigotorena.moo.jp/lesson/bushu-hen3.htm

But like nestor said it comes naturally from writing fast with the correct stroke order.

I'm not sure you can even talk about 'native' handwriting btw as it completely depends on the person. And given that there are so many styles of native handwriting it would not be that hard for a jsl student to pass off as native if they practiced enough.

Although I do agree with ydtt that stroke order isn't the only or even the primary element, but I think perhaps when others mention stroke order they're almost using it as a cursive-like conceptual abbreviation for proper, consistent form, of which stroke order is a part, which is balanced out in its compromise with speed and looseness as one develops an organic familiarity with Japanese characters. Or something. ;p

I only mention that because I try to point out, tangentially, that the canonized stroke order(s) is nothing inherently superior, it's just a template that is useful for consistency in learning kanji. Cognitively I have read that radical knowledge/internal motor programming is more useful than stroke order for recall. (Although I can imagine that in developing any given consistent spatial/dynamic style that includes stroke order across characters and radicals, some sequences will naturally be easier at increasingly granular derivations.)

By the way, I think people have trouble with ydtt's shorthand because it's some 5000 year old outmoded mixture of forms that has been warped by its writer's having huffed papyrus particles whilst cloistered away in a darkened alcove.

You are all doing it wrong.

kainzero Wrote:i think it's rare for anyone to use handwritten characters nowadays, i don't see why it would be helpful to learn. i think a lot of japanese struggle to read it too.

I don't know where people come up with these kinds of blanket statements. Japanese people handwrite things constantly, filling out forms, addressing envelopes, writing notes to each other and themselves. Japan is filled with enormous stationery stores, each of those loaded with thousands of varieties of pens, pencils, writing brushes, etc. Do you think they're just sitting there collecting dust?


Regarding kapalama's various blanket statements, I think it's completely ludicrous to say that a non-native can't learn to write Japanese legibly.

kitakitsune Wrote:You are all doing it wrong.

Ugh, people with handwriting like that deserve to be shot.

thecite Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:You are all doing it wrong.

Ugh, people with handwriting like that deserve to be shot.

I think you just sentenced 坂本龍馬 to death

I'm pretty sure he got stabbed to death.

JimmySeal Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:i think it's rare for anyone to use handwritten characters nowadays, i don't see why it would be helpful to learn. i think a lot of japanese struggle to read it too.

I don't know where people come up with these kinds of blanket statements. Japanese people handwrite things constantly, filling out forms, addressing envelopes, writing notes to each other and themselves. Japan is filled with enormous stationery stores, each of those loaded with thousands of varieties of pens, pencils, writing brushes, etc. Do you think they're just sitting there collecting dust?

i meant that no one really writes in that cursive style, not that people don't write things by hand.

with the exception of writing letters and mailing them, i hardly ever see cursive characters.

Actually, you don't have to write out the kanji at all if you have a Mac. Pages '09 has a full compliment of kanji loaded under Edit; Special Characters.

I made my kanji cards using this feature so I could study the characters as I would see them on the printed page. Believe me, imprinting the correct visual image from the start is a great help in smoothly shifting your learning over to reading Japanese language material.

Just my two cents:

http://www.imagebanana.com/view/qu2na4yb/Unbenannt.png

kitakitsune Wrote:http://travel.rakuten.co.jp/special/ryom...ter_01.jpg

You are all doing it wrong.

haha

Not quite sure why this got bumped...

(and to answer duckfan's bumping-post, you can surely print kanji flashcards using word processors on -any- modern OS, but that doesn't mean you should aspire to live your life with never writing them down. I think learning to write them correctly is important and will aid greatly in long-term retention and recognition.)

... ahem, but more interestingly, I think that the cursive script is most often found in conjunction with the old orthography (meaning obsolete kana, some modern kana but with different pronunciations, and a complete lack of small kana so you have to guess the correct pronunciation of しよ which could mean 'shio' or could mean 'sho'. I don't remember the other details of the old orthography. Also I believe 'the old orthography' was just -one- system that got popular before the modern day and there are other old systems that may or may not have some reason to be preserved).

I learned a little about it from a rather old volume with the non-unique, uninspired, and rather ironic title 'A Modern Japanese Reader' (or something close to that). I learned more about it from watching 日本人の分からない日本語 where it is discussed in a couple episodes. (Fun drama btw, and slightly educational). My impression from the opposite side of the world and without doing any real research on it is that it's used to reproduce 'classic' and 'poetic' text or give text a 'classic' or 'poetic' feel. I'd like to learn to read it and look into it more but my hands are full enough at the moment learning run-of-the-mill modern Japanese!

Ahem. Point being, however, that being unable to read a cursive sign isn't -just- that the cursive is hard to read. It probably goes hand in hand with those obsolete characters which wouldn't be any more comprehensible in any form! (Of course if someone else knows more about it than my ridiculously scanty knowledge, feel free to correct!)

This is nothing, he's been bumping some threads from 2008 in order to give his expert opinions.

Oh, and it's 日本人の知らない日本語

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive has some examples of US 'cursive' handwriting. It is quite different from what we consider calligraphic writing styles. Which I did learn both of when i was a kid in the late 1980s. Thanks great grandma My personal handwriting is like most, a hybrid of cursive and print. Also, there are less and less elementary schools (primary school for those outside of US) even teaching it anymore. To be quite honest, even people in my age range (early 30s) rarely use it even in personal notes and those that do still use cursive should be shot as it's nigh impossible to read most. Heck, I have a hard time reading even cursive/calligraphic writings from a hundred to two hundred years ago. Seriously, look up some US government documents from the early days and tell me some of that is just plan nuts, and that was what was considerd 'proper' native english handwriting of the time. :'( they'd think we are barbarians if they saw our writing style today....