These give me trouble at times still. Any good advice? 現れました　＞　あらわれました　this one word gives me trouble!

If you play a wind instrument like brass it's sooo much easier.

In reality if you go to Japan and practice speaking and hearing it you'll naturally develop it.

Otherwise if you want to get technical:

It's kinda a mix of R and L and involves a tongue motion moving from top to bottom at the beginning of the consonant.

It's really hard to explain.

It's all about tongue placement. In English, we don't touch the top of our mouths when we make r sounds. In Japanese, you make contact.

Try saying 清涼飲料水 five times really fast.

It's an L. Don't even think about R, even if you know how to roll one (stupid lohmaji). Tense your tongue and touch it right behind your upper incisors. For り、りゃ、りゅ、りょ I hold the tip of my tongue lightly against my lower incisors (like for し or ひ), but I'm not 100% sure that this is correct.

It is like an L but the tongue should hit the roof of your mouth further back.

Exaggerate your tongue placement for an English 'La' pronounced (Lawh)
Exaggerate you tongue placement for an English 'Da' pronounced (Dawh) not duh
And then right in the middle is the Ra sound.

If you can speak spanish and can roll your R's its basically the same sound.

The R isnt pronounced its kinda like a side affect The real sound is kind of like Mixing a D and R and an L all together at the same time. I think that's why when Japanese english learners speak English it can sound like any of the above at times.

so

RLDa lol try it.

Hope it helps.

Best advice i've seen is in 'Japanese the manga way'.

It says say the word 'eddie' over and over really fast, and then move the tongue a little back and you have the japanese girls name えり. Now take away the え and you have a good り.

Yeah, seems like the closest consonant we make to the Japanese 'r' in English is 'd'. 'L' is also similar, but actually more different than 'd', since when you make an 'l' your tongue is actually far enough forward to touch your teeth. 'R' is completely different.

It's kind of like 'd' with a bit more flick to it.

aphasiac Wrote:Best advice i've seen is in 'Japanese the manga way'.

It says say the word 'eddie' over and over really fast, and then move the tongue a little back and you have the japanese girls name えり. Now take away the え and you have a good り.

I was talking to someone the other day called 絵理 who said that when she first arrived in the UK people thought her name was 'eddie' due to the way she pronounced it.

I really wish Hepburn or whoever came up with this had used 'l' instead of 'r'. It's created so much confusion.

You put your tongue somewhere at the back of your alveolar ridge, as far as I've been made aware. Make sure you're enunciating your vowels correctly as well, or your ラ行 will sound crappy anyway, especially り.

This page teaches you how to pronounce the ら column http://www.coelang.tufs.ac.jp/english/mo...02-01.html Number 5 on this image is the upper alveolar ridge https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e...lation.svg

Get the shadowing books and use them. Also shadow words that give you trouble using the jdic audio.

All I did was listen and repeat as thoughtlessly as possible, trying to imitate the sounds on a purely kinetic level till I stumbled organically onto the right pronunciation, then refined it over time. It happened after a few days of this when I first started out, I think. I still can't roll my Rs, though.

a nice video from tofugu that I still use as practice

good luck.

wulfgar Wrote:a nice video from tofugu that I still use as practice

good luck.

thanks, this helps a lot

kitakitsune Wrote:It's all about tongue placement. In English, we don't touch the top of our mouths when we make r sounds. In Japanese, you make contact.

Try saying 清涼飲料水 five times really fast.

not that bad

The Japanese R is either an alveolar lateral flap (あらわれる /aɾaɰaɾeɾɯ/) or, after short pauses, an alveolar lateral tap (れきし /ɾekisi/, べんり /beŋɾi/).

If you're American, then you probably use alveolar lateral flaps when you say words such as better, bottle, computer. The T in betty is a non-lateral flap; it sounds a bit different. The D in day, wisdom, could is a voiced alveolar plosive. It is not even a flap/tap, and sounds completely different.

If you can speak Spanish, then you're set. The R from pero is the sound you're looking for. Just make sure you never use the R from perro, which is not a flap/tap.

On a related note, I strongly recommend studying Japanese phonetics; there are some traps you should be aware of. For example, the Japanese U is not the same U from boot: you should not round your lips. The Japanese F is not the same F from force: the lower lip should not touch the teeth; it should almost touch the upper lip. And then there is pitch accent: 箸 and 橋, 此処 and 個々, 高校 and 孝行 have completely different pronunciations.

wulfgar Wrote:a nice video from tofugu that I still use as practice

I can't really say I like this video. The difference between the English L (light, color, tell) and the English D (day, panda, wind) is mainly about airflow, and not tongue position. If you say panda very slowly, you will notice that, while you're pronouncing the D, the airflow is completely blocked by your tongue; no air can leave your mouth. If you say color really slowly, you will notice that, during the L, even though the tongue is almost in the same position, it does not stop the airflow.

It's better to compare with the T you hear in words like better, computer. There are two ways to pronounce it: the British way, which blocks the airflow; and the American way, which does not block the airflow (you can listen to both pronunciations here). The Japanese R is this T, pronounced the American way.

iSoron Wrote:If you're American, then you probably use alveolar lateral flaps when you say words such as better, bottle, computer. The T in betty is a non-lateral flap; it sounds a bit different. The D in day, wisdom, could is a voiced alveolar plosive. It is not even a flap/tap, and sounds completely different.

This. (I was taught using "butter")

iSoron Wrote:If you can speak Spanish, then you're set. The R from pero is the sound you're looking for. Just make sure you never use the R from perro, which is not a flap/tap.

I'm surprised. I always thought pero has slightly more of an "r" sound than ぺろ, but that could just be me and the way I think about language/pronunciation. And yes, I have sat here for about a minute saying pero/ぺろ trying to figure out if they're the same...though my pronunciation of both (at least Japanese, for sure) is probably suspect.

bluemarigolds Wrote:I'm surprised. I always thought pero has slightly more of an "r" sound than ぺろ, but that could just be me and the way I think about language/pronunciation.

They sound the same to me.

But, as I said, there are two Japanese R's: the flap and the tap. The flap (あらわれる、 ながれる、くるま) is the one which is identical to the Spanish R. The tap sounds more like the Spanish L (ラーメン、 ろうじん、たんらく、だんろ、れんらく). If you search 朗々、碌々、論じる、六百六号、露天風呂 in WWWJDIC, you can hear the diference between the two.

I'm sure you could have fun with the potential forms of ラリる and 荒らげる.

need to find a software where I record my own voice/match it up with a natives.That's a good way for me to find out if I'm closely saying just like them.