Hey all, this is my first post! This seems like a very a helpful community; I hope you all will be gentle with this question.

First off, I know that oceans of ink have been spilled on this topic, but after reading through dozens of pages on forum.koohii and AJATT I just can't seem to find a straight answer. Hopeful you will be able to help in this regard.

/suspense

I understand the underlying concept behind RtK, what I'm worried about is the prospect of it training Japanese learners to see the Kanji and think of English ideas. I realize that it doesn't teach the readings. What bothers me is that people talk about figuring out what a kanji compound means by going back to the English keywords. Maybe it's just me, but this doesn't sound like reading Japanese. I know that Heisig believes this is suppose to place Japanese learners in a similar position to a Chinese student learning Japanese; this seems like a leap of logic to me. The Kanji actually have etymological roots in Chinese so that's just like a if a Latin speaker got a grip on French vocabulary by looking at the similar orthography. English however doesn't not have these roots in the Kanji.

Looking at the approach from a distance, it seems to me that learning the Kanji in this manner would be a hindrance to truly acquiring a reading ability like a native(how are you going to banish English from your mind when you're seeing the Kanji as if they were just strange permutations of English words?)

To me this seems like learning Latin stems in order to read French. Sure it can roughly work, but do you want to read French by skipping back to English from Latin? The matter gets complicated further because, unlike this this Kanji method, French orthography differs significantly from Latin, whereas the jōyō kanji are fixed shapes.(I can articulate further on this thought if any of you are confused as to why it's here)

Well, that turned out to be a bit more than a question...

tl;dr - TC wants to know if your actually learning Japanese or a hybrid of Japanese and English with RtK.

Most people who do RTK phase out English keywords (in their reading) over a period of time as their Japanese abilities improve.

When I read Japanese I don't even think of keywords unless I come across kanji I don't know. Then I fall back on RTK and try to decode it.

It's not really 'latin to french' though.

Exhibited by most members who learn Japanese, learning an alphabet isn't difficult at all. Hiragana/Katakana can be learned in the matter of days or weeks.

However, Kanji pose a difficult, straining obstacle to fluency because of our unfamiliarity with them. Lack of exposure and immersion with Kanji leads to us quickly losing Kanji ability through typical rote memorization because of our lack of 24/7 Kanji usage.

RtK is first and foremost a lesson on how to distinguish different Kanji and how to write them. The keywords serve as mnemonic devices, not true meanings or usages, of these Kanji, allowing us to then focus on meanings and pronunciations without worrying about which Kanji is which.

Most people find that when they read Kanji, only with strain or concentration will they be able to go backwards (From Kanji to keyword rather than keyword to Kanji), because learning isn't always transitive. This is a good thing, I think, because you will eventually drop the english definition in place for a Japanese one (大きい instead of 'large') with general ease. In fact when I look at Kanji I find it hard to see english definitions in them at all, unless I really think about it.

I hope that helps you understand why people use this system of learning.

Spirarel Wrote:Looking at the approach from a distance, it seems to me that learning the Kanji in this manner would be a hindrance to truly acquiring a reading ability like a native(how are you going to banish English from your mind when you're seeing the Kanji as if they were just strange permutations of English words?)

This won't happen. It's just that simple. The more you're exposed to the language through reading, the less and less those english "meanings" will be present in your mind. The brain is remarkably good at developing shorcuts, i.e. indecipherable scribbles(kanji)->deconstruction->english keyword->japanese will eventually (like the removal of training wheels) become kanji->japanese as you go about learning readings, and as you read more and more. This is the nature of all learning. The more you practice, the more intermediate steps in your mental process will disappear. The only situation in which you might have a problem, is if you stubbornly hold on to the mnemonic route (i.e. the english keywords) because of some psychological reason, some belief that you should do so, or an inability to let go.

Example: I never learned to read sheet music properly. In the beginning, I had to count the lines of the notes to find the corresponding keys on the piano. Doing it like this allowed me to read much more advanced stuff earlier than I would have if I'd learned one note a week, so to speak, like many young students do. Sure, I used this counting method for some time, and it worked out nicely for memorizing the music as I went along, but it was way too slow to read the music at tempo. The solution? Practice. The more I practised, the less often I'd rely on this counting, and instead I would just look at a note, and see in my mind the right key on the piano. Sure, I could have stubbornly kept counting the lines, perhaps to always make sure I hit the right note, but by trusting myself, and the process, the "training wheels" slowly became unecessary. Similarly, with Heisig, as you dive into the vast ocean of "real Japanese"... well, you get the idea.

kitakitsune Wrote:Most people who do RTK phase out English keywords (in their reading) over a period of time as their Japanese abilities improve.

When I read Japanese I don't even think of keywords unless I come across kanji I don't know. Then I fall back on RTK and try to decode it.

I am in the phase where i gradually substitute the English keywords with Japanese vocab. Instead of having autumn on my card i have あき written in it's place now which leads to 秋. It makes things a whole lot easier, and reinforces vocab as well. So don't worry about the keywords, or the stories, if you plan on doing RTK. Both will fall away over time, and you will not need them anymore. That is, once you learn vocab, or start reading native books, manga or whatever else it is, you are interested in.

I like the training wheels metaphor.

A baby (language learner) cannot get on a bike (kanji) and zoom away.
It needs to get some training wheels (english mnemonics and keywords) so it can practice and learn how exactly the bike works. Then when it masters the training wheels, it removes them and really learns how to bike (reading, practicing readings, etc) using its previous knowledge.

How do you plan on learning Japanese vocabulary without linking back to English definitions?

Just to add, you don't have to do RTK to learn kanji. I don't plan to, and I know of a couple other people who haven't on here as well. The way it is used just doesn't work for some people (myself included).

But it's really useful for some people, and that's a good thing.

fakewookie Wrote:How do you plan on learning Japanese vocabulary without linking back to English definitions?

I don't think using English definitions is a problem until really advanced stages. At that point you can use Japanese dictionaries directly.

kitakitsune Wrote:

fakewookie Wrote:How do you plan on learning Japanese vocabulary without linking back to English definitions?

I don't think using English definitions is a problem until really advanced stages. At that point you can use Japanese dictionaries directly.

Exactly. If it doesn't appeal to you, don't do it. I gave it a try. Didn't like it. No longer do it.

Myrddhin Wrote:Example: I never learned to read sheet music properly. In the beginning, I had to count the lines of the notes to find the corresponding keys on the piano. Doing it like this allowed me to read much more advanced stuff earlier than I would have if I'd learned one note a week, so to speak, like many young students do. Sure, I used this counting method for some time, and it worked out nicely for memorizing the music as I went along, but it was way too slow to read the music at tempo. The solution? Practice. The more I practised, the less often I'd rely on this counting, and instead I would just look at a note, and see in my mind the right key on the piano. Sure, I could have stubbornly kept counting the lines, perhaps to always make sure I hit the right note, but by trusting myself, and the process, the "training wheels" slowly became unecessary. Similarly, with Heisig, as you dive into the vast ocean of "real Japanese"... well, you get the idea.

Love this analogy. Funny I never thought about it like that though.

I know why the Spirarel is concerned, but in practice it just doesn't work that way.

One thing is that becoming fluent in Japanese is such a long process that actually RTK becomes a very small part of it. RTK generally takes about six months, but the actually process of becoming fluent in Japanese usually takes somewhere between 5 and 10 years. No matter what time you do RTK in the process, the vast majority of time you'll be spending with the kanji will not be when thinking about English keywords.

I admit there is a strange tendancy that happens during the process of going through RTK for the first time and directly after it. That is, you often think of certain combinations of kanji by their keywords. Not everybod does it, but sometimes you'll see people talk this way on the forum. The fact is that you naturally stop doing this almost immediately upon finishing RTK, so it's a temporary bad habit.

Actually, I can't go kanji to keyword, since you never practice that with RTK. I can't look at the vast majority of the kanji and tell you the keyword. So the truth is that if you never practice knowing a keyword from a kanji, you probably won't. The exception is simple nouns.

In other words, if you think people who do RTK are thinking about the English keyword all the time, you're just wrong. The keyword just doesn't come up really. The one exception is when you're trying to write the kanji from memory, and you stop to think for a moment--hey, what the hell was the keyword? I could write it if I just knew the damn keyword.

Another big thing is confusing what is problematic in spoken language and written language. With spoken language, speed and fluidity is very important. So, for example, you should learn very early on in the process that you should not translate in your head. When you speak Japanese you should hear what the other person is saying, and just respond directly in Japanese--no English should be involved. So it's fairly important to keep English out of it!

But it's not really so important with reading. You have all the time in the world. Any English that might be in your head during the reading process fades as you get better at reading.

Wow! Such quick responses, my patience could atrophy on this on this forum... lol

Ok,

Thank you kitakitsune for your quick reply. It's good to hear that other individuals haven't "suffered" the same effects as the aforementioned "people".

zachandhobbes- "RtK is first and foremost a lesson on how to distinguish different Kanji and how to write them. The keywords serve as mnemonic devices, not true meanings or usages, of these Kanji, allowing us to then focus on meanings and pronunciations without worrying about which Kanji is which."

This is one of the things that seemed off to me. In the interest of pursuing the most efficient path towards language acquisition(traditional definition not Krashen's) it would seem to me that this approach is just taking all the work of kanji memorization up front, where normally it would be spread out(this probably leads to higher burnout in favor of an approach of maximum efficiency; think activation energy). If it had detrimental effects, then I don't think it would be worth doing in the long run.

"Most people find that when they read Kanji, only with strain or concentration will they be able to go backwards . . ."

Again encouraging to hear.

Myrddhin- I suspected this might be the case, it's nice to get three confirmation of such. Have you personally experienced this with your Japanese studies?

Nagareboshi- I wonder if this is the case then shouldn't a persons first goal after learning the joyo kanji be to gather sentence that use them? I would think you could stop reviewing the kanji if you had a few sentences with the character in it.

fakewookie- I don't; Kanji aren't inherently vocab though, right? At least not in Japanese.

nohika & prink- What method do you use?

Tzadeck- " but in practice it just doesn't work that way. " I again, thought this might be the case, but I'm glad I got all of your input confirming it. It's safer to be a skeptic =/

"I admit there is a strange tendancy that happens during the process of going through RTK for the first time and directly after it. That is, you often think of certain combinations of kanji by their keywords. Not everybod does it, but sometimes you'll see people talk this way on the forum. The fact is that you naturally stop doing this almost immediately upon finishing RTK, so it's a temporary bad habit."

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Such behavior can even been seen on AJATT.

"In other words, if you think people who do RTK are thinking about the English keyword all the time, you're just wrong."

"But it's not really so important with reading. You have all the time in the world. Any English that might be in your head during the reading process fades as you get better at reading."

Although I disagree the first two sentences, I find the third encouraging, again... (I just disagree, because if I had all the time in the world I would just sit down with a grammar and a dictionary and learn power through text, as it is I'd like to know the kanji to be able to read with facility (I know what you're getting at though)) Also: I like the definite article ; )

Edit: Spelling and the like

I learn kanji through vocab. It's not as efficient as RTK, in a way, but it's what makes sense to me. I do mostly vocab and sentence cards (for grammar). It's fun for me.

kitakitsune Wrote:Most people who do RTK phase out English keywords (in their reading) over a period of time as their Japanese abilities improve.

When I read Japanese I don't even think of keywords unless I come across kanji I don't know. Then I fall back on RTK and try to decode it.

And there's some people who SRS the kanji keywords into their heads so much they can't forget them.

KMDES Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:Most people who do RTK phase out English keywords (in their reading) over a period of time as their Japanese abilities improve.

When I read Japanese I don't even think of keywords unless I come across kanji I don't know. Then I fall back on RTK and try to decode it.

And there's some people who SRS the kanji keywords into their heads so much they can't forget them.

a lot of the time, if you keep doing the reps, you'll remember the keywords, even if you didn't make a good story for visualizing theme

nohika Wrote:I learn kanji through vocab. It's not as efficient as RTK, in a way, but it's what makes sense to me. I do mostly vocab and sentence cards (for grammar). It's fun for me.

vocab building is key for understanding both text/listening. But in the beginning, context is golden. As you won't understand a lot to begin with.

ta12121 Wrote:

nohika Wrote:I learn kanji through vocab. It's not as efficient as RTK, in a way, but it's what makes sense to me. I do mostly vocab and sentence cards (for grammar). It's fun for me.

vocab building is key for understanding both text/listening. But in the beginning, context is golden. As you won't understand a lot to begin with.

I pull all my vocab from Yomichan, so I do get context with them. I don't pull the sentences quite yet since they're still a bit complicated for my level, but I remember the context of the translation when I recall the word. Since most of the time the word I was searching for (the contextual translation) is one of the first two listed.

I like pulling from novels. It's hard, but it's fun. Plus I have a pretty deep background with the basics, since I've been studying on and off for years.

KMDES Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:Most people who do RTK phase out English keywords (in their reading) over a period of time as their Japanese abilities improve.

When I read Japanese I don't even think of keywords unless I come across kanji I don't know. Then I fall back on RTK and try to decode it.

And there's some people who SRS the kanji keywords into their heads so much they can't forget them.

This was my first thought. After reading all of these replies though, I'm wondering how much of a risk this actually is.

I don't even remember the keywords...

I've never heard of anyone being so caught up on English keywords that they intruded on their Japanese ability post-RTK. If I were to encounter such a rare person, I'd check to see if they did RTK wrong, i.e. SRS'd keywords instead of SRSing kanji.

The keywords are there if you want to use them as mnemonic devices, which is fine when you've finished the initial production line process of RTK with its efficiently lowered overhead for picking up vocabulary and readings for those kanji without having to worry about parsing novel characters themselves, but they fade away till brought forth and eventually you'll be hard pressed to recall them at all unless you continue to actively bring them to mind for some reason.

That's even if you continue SRSing the RTK kanji after finishing, which is unnecessary if you're making sure to consistently attend to kanji in word/sentence reviews elsewhere.

Using the keywords as a forgettable but initially useful device also becomes less useful as you internalize a bevy of words and hence readings, you'll end up with enough Japanese hooks/foundation that further usage is unnecessary.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't even remember the keywords...

I'm guessing that you still think Heisig was a good idea?

I gather from ajatt that after one has gone through the onerousness of breaking up so many kanji, you develop a feeling(unconscious technique?) for new ones. I know that I certainly don't want want to be tethered to Heisig reviews forever...

Spirarel Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't even remember the keywords...

I'm guessing that you still think Heisig was a good idea?

I gather from ajatt that after one has gone through the onerousness of breaking up so many kanji, you develop a feeling(unconscious technique?) for new ones. I know that I certainly don't want want to be tethered to Heisig reviews forever...

eventually the reviews,. goes down to less than 20. Is it that hard to maintain? Although I know, not everyone wants to review forever. But at least replace it with something. Just for maintaining reasons

Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't even remember the keywords...

I forgot a lot of keywords as well, but it got replaced with Japanese, which is the point of learning jp. Reading get's replaced by real jp words

TL;DR

Take it from some of us veterans who've done RTK and have since moved on and developed functional reading abilities: English gets fully replaced with Japanese with time and exposure.

In other words, don't worry.