I am planning a field trip up to reactor 4 to absorb my superhero powers. Anyone else want to join forces and fight Bill O'Reilly and other supervillains?

bodhisamaya Wrote:I am planning a field trip up to reactor 4 to absorb my superhero powers. Anyone else want to join forces and fight Bill O'Reilly and other supervillains?

LOL

If you're afraid about the Tokyo radiation levels, a guy has put his Geiger counter on ustream: http://current.com/technology/93075503_t...ounter.htm
direct link: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/geiger-counter-tokyo
second channel in Tokyo: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/%E3%82%AC%...3%E3%82%BF
Chiba: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/geiger-counter-chiba

Everything below 60 is normal.

Here's the NHK article that puts the highest level at the plant as 11.9 mSv, btw.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20110316...01000.html

The problem, I think, is that people are confusing MICROsieverts with MILLIsieverts. They just see the M and their brains go to sleep on the rest until they see "sievert."

NHK and other sources were saying the highest reading at the Fukushima power plant was 400 millisieverts between units 2 and 3. [edit: that 11.9 figure was at the main gate according to that article.] ugh, I preferred not knowing the word "sievert" 2 days ago.

Tokyo highest level detected was 0.809 microsievert (10:00 am, Mar 15) according to one source (should be easy enough to verify)

I was a bit surprised that the Ministry of Health increased the maximum level of radiation exposure for emergency nuclear workers' from 100 to 250 millisieverts in order to get the job done. Unilaterally changing the job description like that mid crisis...

So the level must still have been at least that high when the helicopters turned back.

@OP: you might want the read the (long) British Embassy update in the other earthquake thread and perhaps send it to your concerned friends.

According to one report I heard on CNN, who was citing Edano, the radiation level above the reactors was higher than measured at ground level, so that's why they stopped dumping water on the reactors from above.

The international standard (can't remember if it was IAEA or WHO who set it) for the maximum level of radiation exposure for nuke plant workers in a year is 500 millisieverts, so even though raising it to 250 seems extreme, Japan is still playing it "safe" in comparison to global standards. (According to the same report.)

Then again, that's maximum exposure for a year, not a couple of days.

rich_f Wrote:According to one report I heard on CNN, who was citing Edano, the radiation level above the reactors was higher than measured at ground level, so that's why they stopped dumping water on the reactors from above.

The international standard (can't remember if it was IAEA or WHO who set it) for the maximum level of radiation exposure for nuke plant workers in a year is 500 millisieverts, so even though raising it to 250 seems extreme, Japan is still playing it "safe" in comparison to global standards. (According to the same report.)

Then again, that's maximum exposure for a year, not a couple of days.

Yeah but they are not naked when performing these tasks. So the could still be well within safe margins.

Do you have a link to NHK saying 400 millisieverts? I keep seeing that number in the foreign press, but I've never found it in the Japanese press.

rich_f Wrote:Then again, that's maximum exposure for a year, not a couple of days.

Generally the idea is that you start rotating people when they have accumulated their maximum allowed exposure. There was a cleanup of a military reactor in the US where crews were limited to like 60 seconds each before they had to get out. It's when a task cannot be broken up into periods of safe exposure that you either have to abandon it or ask for volunteers. Helicopter bombing would probably fall into the latter category, as it takes a relatively long period of time to get into position.

The helicopter pilots attempting the water bombing had their own maximum exposure as they were SDF not nuclear technicians. NHK quoted 50 mSv.

@Tzadeck and co

I didn't want to spread rumours or anything else, just to let you know. Sorry if i mistakenly wrote "german press", it was russian (russian and german television is running 24/7 in this house, rather confusing, but in the end it's the same. still 20 millisieverts in Tokyo as the reporter states. The reporter looked comfortable, although he was certainly able to do some quick calculations in his head telling him 20 millisievert per hour are dangerous). Unfortunately I cannot find the source on the internets, wtf o0 The news was aired yesterday night (European Time) on "Russia 24", a 24/7 news channel. Could somebody please *confirm* that, preferably somebody who has watched the news as well or is from Russia and can find the source online???

Tzadeck Wrote:Do you have a link to NHK saying 400 millisieverts? I keep seeing that number in the foreign press, but I've never found it in the Japanese press.

I was watching NHK today and they kept repeating that figure. I did check it before posting (to double check micro/milli), but yes it was on English sites. I'll let you know if I see something written in Japanese (though you say you've already looked?) NHK's very repetitive; it'll probably come up again.

btw, NHK also showed levels from Fukushima city to Tokyo ranging from about 23 to .03 microsv to show how much it decreases with distance and the effect of the wind.

zigmonty Wrote:There was a cleanup of a military reactor in the US where crews were limited to like 60 seconds each before they had to get out.

Same deal at Tokaimura. The only way to stop that reaction (high grade uranium in open containers) was to manually drain the water. Workers (mgmt?) took turns going inside to turn valves, etc. Despite full coverup, they could only stay in for one minute at a time, yet still received "elevated doses". What the workers are called upon to do in these accidents is simply unimaginable. They're heroes no matter what happens.

[hijacking the thread a bit here]
Tzadeck, Japanese media and nuclear associations seem to have the same information about Tepco announcing the March 15th measurement of 400 mSv and Edano confirming that it poses a risk to health. Looking at some TEPCO stuff, levels were in the hundred millis at a few other times/days as well.

Here's a couple links:

枝野官房長官は、午前１１時すぎからの記者会見で、「福島第一原子力発電所の敷地の中で放射線を測定した値が、午前１０時２２分現在で、３号機付近で１時間当たり４００ミリシーベルト、４号機付近で１００ミリシーベルト、２号機と３号機の間で３０ミリシーベルト、という結果が出ている。 NHK Online

Japan Atomic Industrial Forum第７版３月１６日午後７時００分現在

枝野幸男官房長官は午前の記者会見で、東京電力福島第一原発3号機付近で放射性物質を400ミリシーベルト/時（400,000マイクロシーベルト/時）を確認したと明らかにした。ja wiki

【原発爆発】枝野氏「放射能濃度４００ミリシーベルト観測。身体への影響もある」
産経ニュース

IAEA says non-indispensible staff were evacuated as a result of this level pursuant to the Emergency Response Plan. TEPCO didn't evacuate the ~750 workers until 6 pm. At almost 9 pm, the remaining ~50 workers were temporarly moved to safety, even though the Health Ministry had raised the max radiation level to 250 an hour earlier. One Yomiuri headline apparently reads, "Workers persevere amid fears of 400 millisieverts." A couple guys reportedly have signs of radiation sickness. I read that they only stay out there for ~15 minutes. (maybe longer when the radiation is lower?)

According to a nuclear consultant named Tony Irwin, the average dose for a radiation worker is 20 mSv/yr with a max 50 in one year.

Quote:Now many countries have an emergency limit of 100 msvs a year. They'll wear radiation monitors, so they can see exactly what they're getting on a real time basis.

edit: Added some ~'s (approx.) as the numbers aren't very clear. There also reports of spikes of 600-1000 mSv, but who knows if that's true. Time for a break. I feel sad.

Okay, thanks. You're right.

Thora Wrote:"Workers persevere amid fears of 400 millisieverts." A couple guys reportedly have signs of radiation sickness. I read that they only stay out there for 15 minutes. (maybe longer when the radiation is lower?)

Hello robots!

I wonder if there will be a boom in developing robots who will be capable of doing things like those workers + cope with higher radiation.

Radiation levels in Japan by prefecture:
http://notice.yahoo.co.jp/emg/en/archives/np_jp.html

anyone else keep reading Sieverts as "serviettes" in english? :/

I really wish they would stick with ONE type of unit...

going from micro to milli constantly back and forth is really confusing...

Tzadeck Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:Here's one view:
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showpost....count=1250

He's actually wrong about this being the only nuclear accident since Chernobyl. One other such accident was the Tokaimura criticality accident in 1999, in Ibaraki prefecture, which was bad enough that people needed to stay in their homes and some residents in the area were hospitalized.

if you want the real info you are going to have to read between the lines. I am not an expert (on nuclear reactors or reading between the lines), however, when I see that preparations are being made on the korean penninsula and I look at its distance from the reactors, I see that there obviously is a threat in my area (albeit a small one).

So balancing the cost and benefit of leaving, I'm staying, but it would not be entirely crazy to leave. if you are planning to wait till you know for sure that you should leave, then its going to be difficult (expensive, fewer options) to leave.

tangentially, we make cost benefit decisions everyday. I could die driving to work, but I do it anyway because the risk in my estimate is low.

Luckily, grays and sierverts are basically the same, so you don't really have to think of them as being different. Apparently grays are used with a focus on measuring the physical aspect of radiation, but sierverts are used with a focus on measuring the possible biological effects of radiation.

Yeah, I read 'sierverts' in a way that is obviously incorrect, and with little consistency in pronunciation. Shows how much easier Japanese is with that: シーベルト.