LazyNomad Wrote:I think they should upgrade the level up to 7. It really is not much different from Chernobyl, given the fire near the pool with spent fuel. All the radiation goes straight to the atmosphere.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/84757.html
Japan has decided to raise the severity level of the accident at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant to 7, the highest on an international scale, from the current 5, government sources said Tuesday.

[ファブリス]

Moving liquefied ground by Earthquake, Chiba prefecture.

Japan Earthquake - Street in Japan 'moving like an island'

Near Tokyo Disneyland, liquefaction turns town into a grim funhouse
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/near...story.html

Liquefaction damage widespread
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110409002397.htm

Ishinomaki school starts new year after losing 70% of its students

“Many children and teachers of the school, located some 5 kilometers from the mouth of the Kitakami River, were caught in the tsunami before they evacuated to higher land following the quake. The disaster killed or left missing 74 of its 108 students and 10 of its 13 teachers.”

LazyNomad Wrote:

LazyNomad Wrote:I think they should upgrade the level up to 7. It really is not much different from Chernobyl, given the fire near the pool with spent fuel. All the radiation goes straight to the atmosphere.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/84757.html
Japan has decided to raise the severity level of the accident at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant to 7, the highest on an international scale, from the current 5, government sources said Tuesday.

Congratulations, Nostradamus :-P

I've only just begun to shake this headache caused by the radiation flowing from Chernobyl. What ever shall I do about Japan?

It is really irritating reading people compare Fukushima to Chernobyl.

The rating is more in regards to the type of disaster rather than the absolute severity of it. Seven just means there was a release of radiation that affected more than just the immediate surroundings. It says nothing about the amount of radiation (Chernobyl released MUCH MUCH more).

bodhisamaya, I have the opposite feeling. It is really irritating how some people disregard the situation even as it gets worse.It is irritating to hear that Fukushima 7 is different from Chernobyl 7. It is irritating to hear Japanese TV explanations from experts, that you shouldn`t be worry about different types of irradiated foods, because you need to eat more or drink more than X-kg a day everyday to get ill.

Jarvik7 Wrote:The rating is more in regards to the type of disaster rather than the absolute severity of it. Seven just means there was a release of radiation that affected more than just the immediate surroundings. It says nothing about the amount of radiation (Chernobyl released MUCH MUCH more).

Amount of radiation released is about 10% comparing to Chernobyl. And is still leaking, and has the potential to surpass Chernobyl. And lets pray that there will be no new tsunami and earthquakes there.

LazyNomad Wrote:bodhisamaya, I have the opposite feeling. It is really irritating how some people disregard the situation even as it gets worse.It is irritating to hear that Fukushima 7 is different from Chernobyl 7. It is irritating to hear Japanese TV explanations from experts, that you shouldn`t be worry about different types of irradiated foods, because you need to eat more or drink more than X-kg a day everyday to get ill.

I find it really hard to worry about something that increases your risk of dying far far less than getting into a car does.

The real obvious disaster here is the fact that the area needs to be evacuated, causing all sorts of extra trouble in what is already a disaster situation, and making people unable to return to their homes. The disaster of Fukushima is not that it causes a very very very slight health risk (one that isn't even high enough to be measurable other than in theory) even outside of the evacuation area.

Saying that Fukushima 7 and Chernobyl 7 are the same is like saying the MLB team the New York Yankees is the same as the MLB team the Pittsburgh Pirates because they're both MLB baseball teams. Actually, the Yankees are one of the best teams in the world, and the Pitsburgh Pirates are really mediocre players. (Recently, that is. They used to be a real team twenty years ago.)

The situation is not getting worse; It is getting better, as was posted on another thread:

thurd Wrote:I like this as a summary of the current situation:
http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/

So far every 2 days there are significant drops in radiation reported at the plant, so the situation seems stable and given more time they'll be able to clean it up even further.

Radiation data fluctuates every day, it can be lower today and higher tommorow. There is no steady drop in levels of radiation at the plant. Plant is still unstable and actual damage is unknown.

Unless there was a massive leak I never heard of in the past few days, the last figures I've seen suggest that the amount of radiation is 1% of Chernobyl.

There is also no reason to assume that things will get worse, as the material gets cooler day by day and current data is showing steady drops. Of course another disaster COULD happen, but a meteor could destroy all of Japan too. Don't fear monger.

LazyNomad Wrote:Radiation data fluctuates every day, it can be lower today and higher tommorow. There is no steady drop in levels of radiation at the plant. Plant is still unstable and actual damage is unknown.

Where? Link to the data please.

Because the data I've seen doesn't seem to line up with what you're saying.
http://www.mext.go.jp/a_menu/saigaijohou...303723.htm

Jarvik7 Wrote:Unless there was a massive leak I never heard of in the past few days, the last figures I've seen suggest that the amount of radiation is 1% of Chernobyl.

There is also no reason to assume that things will get worse, as the material gets cooler day by day and current data is showing steady drops. Of course another disaster COULD happen, but a meteor could destroy all of Japan too. Don't fear monger.

Have you seen Japanese TV regarding why it is level 7 and how Fukushima leakage amount compares with Chernobyl?
If you want proof link: http://www.47news.jp/CN/201104/CN2011041201000192.html

経済産業省原子力安全・保安院1 件は１２日、東京電力福島第１原発事故の深刻度を国際評価尺度（ＩＮＥＳ）の暫定評価で、最悪の「レベル７」とすると発表した。これまで放出された放射性物質の量について、保安院は３７万テラベクレル（テラは１兆）、原子力安全委員会は６３万テラベクレルと推定。１～３号機の全体評価として、レベル７の基準である数万テラベクレルを大きく上回ったと判断した。

　レベル７は、史上最悪の原子力事故とされる旧ソ連のチェルノブイリ1 件原発事故と同じ。保安院によると、チェルノブイリでは推定で５２０万テラベクレルが放出された。保安院の西山英彦官房審議官は、これまでの放出量はその１割程度だとして「チェルノブイリとは相当異なる」と説明。だが東電の松本純一原子力・立地本部長代理は、放出が止まっていないことを踏まえ「放出量がチェルノブイリに匹敵する、もしくは超えるかもしれない懸念を持っている」とした。

Also, read the last sentence, where TEPCO guy says that there are fears that the amount of leakage may equal or surpass that of Chernobyl.

Tzadeck Wrote:

LazyNomad Wrote:Radiation data fluctuates every day, it can be lower today and higher tommorow. There is no steady drop in levels of radiation at the plant. Plant is still unstable and actual damage is unknown.

Where? Link to the data please.

Because the data I've seen doesn't seem to line up with what you're saying.
http://www.mext.go.jp/a_menu/saigaijohou...303723.htm

There were several times when it was announced that radiation levels droped, and as many times when it was announced that levels are rising again. Same for the temperature of the reactor pressure vessels and spent fuel pools, it drops and rises time and again.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/n...414a1.html

No respectable scientist would agree with what the media is reporting. There are some quacks out there being interviewed on news programs who have been exposed by actual nuclear scientists though.

Tip 1: Japan Times is crap
Tip 2: Most of the atomic experts interviewed on English news are actually anti-nuclear lobbyists/activists. Check for bias.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Tip 1: Japan Times is crap
Tip 2: Most of the atomic experts interviewed on English news are actually anti-nuclear lobbyists/activists. Check for bias.

You can or cannot agree with Japan Times commentaries, but you can`t ignore the fact. Radiation numbers are primary data, any media will have the same figures.
Have you actually read the article?
What else authorities do you need?
保安院 (Industrial and Nuclear Security Agency) estimates the leakage as 37000 TBq,
while 原子力安全委員会 (Nuclear Safety Commission) estimates it as 63000 TBq.
The estimated number of Chernobyl is 520000 TBq, which makes the Fukushima figures about 10% of Chernobyl.
These are official numbers and based on these estimations the Japanese government decided to upgrade the incident to level 7.
The TEPCO guy that fears that leakage may surpass Chernobyl is not just an ordinary TEPCO employee, but a representative of emergency headquarters of TEPCO and he said his opinion at a press-conference.

Tzadeck Wrote:I find it really hard to worry about something that increases your risk of dying far far less than getting into a car does.

The real obvious disaster here is the fact that the area needs to be evacuated, causing all sorts of extra trouble in what is already a disaster situation, and making people unable to return to their homes. The disaster of Fukushima is not that it causes a very very very slight health risk (one that isn't even high enough to be measurable other than in theory) even outside of the evacuation area.

You contradict yourself. People are evacuated, because there is considerable risk for their health.

Unfortunately it's going to take more than moderate, well-reasoned, and practical words from nuclear experts to quell the nuclear hysteria and fear-mongering from occupying its pathological and persistent niche in commentary.

In the meantime, all the rest of us can do is focus on the problem realistically, without sensationalizing, and as one problem amongst a bevy of issues, rather than obsessing over it to the detriment of the hard work of recovery overall and in other areas.

LazyNomad Wrote:There were several times when it was announced that radiation levels droped, and as many times when it was announced that levels are rising again. Same for the temperature of the reactor pressure vessels and spent fuel pools, it drops and rises time and again.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/n...414a1.html

Yeah, the number has gone up and down, but the long-term trend has been downward--towards less radiation being released.

LazyNomad Wrote:You contradict yourself. People are evacuated, because there is considerable risk for their health.

*facepalm*
No, I'm not contradicting myself. The reason there is an evacuation area is because in that zone there could be a real risk to human health. That's true. And it's simultaneously true that outside of the evacuation zone there is little to no health risk. That's because the amount of radiation people are exposed to outside of the evacuation zone is far less than the amount of radiation they would be being exposed to were they inside the evacuation zone.

(Unless you're under the belief that the radiation levels need to be the same everywhere in the world--in which case we should either all be taking iodine pills, or we should throw a party inside the Fukushima reactor. Raaaaaave time--it's all the same man!)

People were evacuated out of an area where radiation levels are high enough to cause a significant increase in cancer risk, and brought to an area where levels are not high enough to cause a measurable increase in cancer risk. In such a situation, it's fairly obvious that the tragedy is the evacuation--people need to leave their homes and their things behind, in an area already straining to bring supplies and give shelter to people. The people are leaving to be in areas where radiation levels are not high enough to be dangerous, hence why that's not the tragedy here.

To some it all up in a sentence:
People were evacuated--and that sucks--but they're safe now because they're far away.

[ファブリス]

LazyNomad Wrote:bodhisamaya, I have the opposite feeling. It is really irritating how some people disregard the situation even as it gets worse

That was exactly my feeling on this thread for the past two weeks or so.

ファブリス Wrote:Moving liquefied ground by Earthquake, Chiba prefecture.

Japan Earthquake - Street in Japan 'moving like an island'

Near Tokyo Disneyland, liquefaction turns town into a grim funhouse
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/near...story.html

Liquefaction damage widespread
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110409002397.htm

I went to have a look at this I think 2 days after the earthquake as I live 10 mins on the train from Kaihin Makuhari (where those top 2 videos were shot). It was pretty muddy but all the water had gone and nothing was moving. Guys were already patching it up at the shopping center there.

Tzadeck, the problem is the situation is far from being over. I would be more calm, if there were not signs of the possibility of another strong quake in the area in the meantime. Another quake or tsunami can be deadly for the station in its current condition.

ファブリス Wrote:

LazyNomad Wrote:, I have the opposite feeling. It is really irritating how some people disregard the situation even as it gets worse

That was exactly my feeling on this thread for the past two weeks or so.

Me too.

That's why I prefer to converse elsewhere where polarized conversations about whether or not the mythologized Chernobyl is reiterating in Japan isn't the main topic, but instead where the nuclear situation is an incomplete aspect of the subject that is explored in a nuanced manner.

But perhaps this thread/forum isn't really built to sustain such in-depth conversations about complex ongoing world events, hence the default endless perpetuation of is-too/is-not Chernobyl.