The "F" word still bugs me. How would you guys classify fluency? When is it achieved?
I keep thinking to myself "I must have near prefect reading,speaking,writing and listening skills before I can call myself fluent"

Any advice on this?

I've actually started calling myself fluent in Japanese.

My critera basically has to do with how many different types of situations you can handle in Japanese. Can you have a conversation appropriate to whatever situation you're in? Can you judge what type of language to use in the conversation? Can you talk about a variety of topics? Can you participate in a conversation with more than one native Japanese speaker? Can you read? Can you watch internet videos in Japanese? Can you understand Japanese shows?

Seems to me if you can answer 'yeah, pretty much' for the majority of these questions, you're fluent.

fluent - "able to speak or write a specified foreign language with facility"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fluent

There are too many factors to even try to give a guess to how long that would take. It depends on how often you study per day, how effective your study habits and how intelligent you are. I have not seen any studies on how long it would take the "average" English speaker to become capable in Japanese, so any responses you're going to get are going to be very broad guesses.

prink Wrote:fluent - "able to speak or write a specified foreign language with facility"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fluent

There are too many factors to even try to give a guess to how long that would take. It depends on how often you study per day, how effective your study habits and how intelligent you are. I have not seen any studies on how long it would take the "average" English speaker to become capable in Japanese, so any responses you're going to get are going to be very broad guesses.

"able to speak or write smoothly, easily, or readily: a fluent speaker; fluent in six languages. "

yea it is vague. But it's strange sometimes to me.
In terms of what I do:
Listening: I listen pretty much to Japanese stuff all day. So I've gotten pretty solid in terms of listening. And reading as well but thanks to the srs(anki) I've gained that 90%+ mark and in terms of listening and reading. But I still don't think of myself fluent.

Now in terms of speaking I do need to keep improving. But it's becoming easier and easier, as I just keep immersion/reading/listening. When I try to get into a conversation, I still do have problems but it keeps improving, which is good.

Now in terms of writing. I'd say I need more work on this(both typing and physically). I believe with anki, eventually I'll be able to write/read most kanji flawlessly from memory.

But I guess when it comes to me I keep saying "There's so much more to be learned, how can I be fluent if I don't know this?"
Someone said to me "that's perfection your aiming for, not fluency". That's when it hit me, I think I set my expectations high for myself.

外国人は日本語をなかなか話せません。

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:外国人は日本語をなかなか話せません。

そうみたいです

ta12121 Wrote:

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:外国人は日本語をなかなか話せません。

そうみたいです

外国人は日本語がなかなか話せません。

Tzadeck Wrote:I've actually started calling myself fluent in Japanese.

My critera basically has to do with how many different types of situations you can handle in Japanese. Can you have a conversation appropriate to whatever situation you're in? Can you judge what type of language to use in the conversation? Can you talk about a variety of topics? Can you participate in a conversation with more than one native Japanese speaker? Can you read? Can you watch internet videos in Japanese? Can you understand Japanese shows?

Seems to me if you can answer 'yeah, pretty much' for the majority of these questions, you're fluent.

I think a good way to compare if your fluent is, can you do all the things you can do in a foreign language that you can do in your native language?

I guess the meaning of the word is going to differ for everyone. You can split language learners up into groups like beginner, intermediate and advanced, but what this means for each person is going to vary a lot.

I would expect someone who claimed to be fluent to be at the high end of the advanced category. Not necessarily able to speak like a native or understand every word, but still be able to get the meaning of new words using only Japanese and without having to turn to a dictionary mid-conversation. They would be able to explain pretty much anything in Japanese even if their choice of words is not quite as good as a native. (actually I guess what I've described would be similar to a natively born child in many ways)

The next level up would be native, i.e. being able to speak at the same level as someone of a similar education born natively.

Perfection would be even higher. Even natives make spelling mistakes, use incorrect grammar etc.

mutley Wrote:I guess the meaning of the word is going to differ for everyone. You can split language learners up into groups like beginner, intermediate and advanced, but what this means for each person is going to vary a lot.

I would expect someone who claimed to be fluent to be at the high end of the advanced category. Not necessarily able to speak like a native or understand every word, but still be able to get the meaning of new words using only Japanese and without having to turn to a dictionary mid-conversation. They would be able to explain pretty much anything in Japanese even if their choice of words is not quite as good as a native. (actually I guess what I've described would be similar to a natively born child in many ways)

The next level up would be native, i.e. being able to speak at the same level as someone of a similar education born natively.

Perfection would be even higher. Even natives make spelling mistakes, use incorrect grammar etc.

Thanks for the comment. That clarified a lot of stuff for me.

LazyNomad Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:外国人は日本語をなかなか話せません。

そうみたいです

外国人は日本語がなかなか話せません。

どちらでもいいでしょう。

Tzadeck Wrote:

LazyNomad Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:そうみたいです

外国人は日本語がなかなか話せません。

どちらでもいいでしょう。

どちでもいいってじゃねーよ。目的は日本人らしく言い方で話すなら「が」の方がいいぞ。

For me, fluency is:

1. Being able to read a newspaper in your target language.
2. Being able to handle any situation a normal Japanese adult might be able to handle. Going to the doctor's office, ordering at a restaurant, asking for an understanding directions, describing objects of which you don't know then name, etc.
3. Being able to socialize comfortably in your target language.

It's hard to say. I think fluency and native level is different.

Fluency is being able to, with the ease of a native, encounter and understand different complex situations in a language with full functionality of the language. Most people could probably teach themselves fluency by learning, studying, and lots of immersion like watching movies.

Native level is way, way harder to achieve I think. Students go to school for 10+ years learning tons of various nouns and special rare words. EX: "proletariat" - how often do you run into that word in common speech, yet I bet you know what it means if you graduated from high school in an english speaking environment - it's just a natural strong ability with the language because of intense studying.

So I think fluency is an achievable, admirable goal while native level is way harder, and probably not worth it.

Tzadeck Wrote:

LazyNomad Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:そうみたいです

外国人は日本語がなかなか話せません。

どちらでもいいでしょう。

I was pretty sure that が is the right way to say it, but google indicates you are right. I wonder if there is any meaning difference between two and why both are possible?

Ryuujin27 Wrote:どちでもいいってじゃねーよ。目的は日本人らしく言い方で話すなら「が」の方がいいぞ。

I think the 日本人らしく言い方 comes from having a feel for [any] slight difference in nuance and can depend on age and dialect. It's not always the case that 「が」の方がいいぞ. Some studies of perceived acceptability of が　vs を　show it to be evenly divided (with >50% preferring を　in certain age groups.) One theory for the acceptability of both is based on the evolution of potential form. (In other words, it's not just a mistake made by young people.)

[edit: the → any. There may not always be a difference in nuance.]

A lot of textbooks and teachers say that only が is correct, and (I've heard that) が was exclusively used not so long ago. But, as Thora explained, these days both are used quite frequently in practice. Only using が doesn't make you any closer to sounding like a Japanese.

I prescribe a bit to the approach mentioned in this website. Basically, I think this approach could be used as a form of testing for advanced students to judge how good they are with the language. Consider, a student comes in for testing for 1 hour and is tested by a test professional on their ability in say 20-30 areas using short role plays. The tester could adjust as needed and give a score. (I know TOEIC is more standardized but it is a bit of a waste. The old cliche of a student with a 800+ TOEIC score, but can't carry on a conversation in business, even with another second language learner, is very, very real.)

Quote:For many years, English students were taught about the language in self, but not taught how to use the language in neighborhood properly. Even at the present day, the products of education still make disappointments; in the way of the students use English. Most of the students are capable in preserving their memories about the learning materials given by the teacher, but they don’t really understand how to use it. They still have difficulties to use English. Whereas they need it related with environment and society for they will be work and live with.

See here

I think if you are fluent enough in 9/10 areas you would need to maintain daily life in a country, then you are considered "of a high competency in your target language"

Does anyone have a list of catagories for the list above. I have had some trouble finding some (maybe just wrong search terms). #Looks at Nestor#

zachandhobbes Wrote:EX: "proletariat" - how often do you run into that word in common speech, yet I bet you know what it means if you graduated from high school in an english speaking environment

I'm college educated and yet I have no idea what that word means. I think maybe its some government position? If it were Japanese, I would look it up. But since its my own native language, I just don't give a damn.

Tzadeck Wrote:A lot of textbooks and teachers say that only が is correct, and (I've heard that) が was exclusively used not so long ago. But, as Thora explained, these days both are used quite frequently in practice. Only using が doesn't make you any closer to sounding like a Japanese.

I forget the case but I'll ask my teacher again tomorrow, But there are instances where you have to use を　 and が　cannot be used according to him.I think it has to do with the verb being either transitive or intransitive. but yeah が　is usually used in most cases.

日本人より自然な日本語が話せるまで「fluent」と言わないほうがいいと思う。

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:

LazyNomad Wrote:外国人は日本語がなかなか話せません。

どちらでもいいでしょう。

どちでもいいってじゃねーよ。目的は日本人らしく言い方で話すなら「が」の方がいいぞ。

Zarxrax Wrote:

zachandhobbes Wrote:EX: "proletariat" - how often do you run into that word in common speech, yet I bet you know what it means if you graduated from high school in an english speaking environment

I'm college educated and yet I have no idea what that word means.

But since its my own native language, I just don't give a damn.

^
This

I did look it up, wage worker basically ( can include salaried employees too )

Dustin_Calgary Wrote:I did look it up, wage worker basically ( can include salaried employees too )

A wage worker is a "proletarian". The "proletariat" is the class of wage workers as a whole, in the context of Marxist theory. In Communist literature it is often used as a synonym for "working class", although the existence of the "intellectual proletariat" is sometimes acknowledged.

Sometimes I wish I lived in a country where I didn't have to know the meaning of that word. 共産党員の野郎…

vonPeterhof Wrote:

Dustin_Calgary Wrote:I did look it up, wage worker basically ( can include salaried employees too )

A wage worker is a "proletarian". The "proletariat" is the class of wage workers as a whole, in the context of Marxist theory. In Communist literature it is often used as a synonym for "working class", although the existence of the "intellectual proletariat" is sometimes acknowledged.

Sometimes I wish I lived in a country where I didn't have to know the meaning of that word. 共産党員の野郎…

Whoops, my bad.

I've got a bad habit of scanning too quickly and missing subtle differences in the words, just make a few connections enough that I know what's being talked about :p

Can you convince an employer to put you up in front of high profile Japanese clients without screwing up? Yes? Then you're probably fluent.