I don't know the Japanese word for communism

共産主義

thecite Wrote:共産主義

cool

And socialism, oh so surprisingly, is 社会主義

thecite Wrote:And socialism, oh so surprisingly, is 社会主義

cool

Ah, annoying. You know due to the core 6000 I recognize the Japanese word, but don't have many details in English.

Judging from what I see on the news, most Americans don't know what socialism and communism are either.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Judging from what I see on the news, most Americans don't know what socialism and communism are either.

this is very true...

communism: red stuff that is against AMERICA and FREEDOM and supports EVIL
socialism: OBAMA

typical definitions

Lol, ok... seriously, I didn't know what socialism was either. Democracy... isn't that capitalism?

Lol, only kidding about democracy. Socialism, I have no idea.

To be fair, "socialism" is a nebulous term, sort of like "democracy" -- it means different things to different people. But the basic idea of it is that workers should control the "means of production"; that is, rather than having a CEO or board of directors make decisions that affect the workers without the workers having a say, the workers themselves have the collective power to make such decisions. It also tends to embody the idea that production should be geared towards use, not profit. But all the specifics of this vary widely depending on which socialist you're listening to, particularly when it comes to how the government should work in a socialist society.

I see socialism as basically an economic system where people pay taxes and then get cheap or free access to things like healthcare, childcare, unemployment insurance, etc.
So I can go to the doctor for free, I understand that that isn't the case in America?

Guys! One Japanese woman who I just met a few hours before talked about me with one other Japanese woman and said that my japanese is ぺらぺら。

I'm quitting learning Japanese.

Wasn't expecting a political discussion when I clicked this link, but...

As for fluency, to be honest I think it's a deceptive word. Although I'm far from fluent in Japanese (in fact I just started learning) I am fluent in the second language I ever learned, American Sign Language. I've been studying ASl for almost eight years now, and I'm training to be an interpreter. I can carry on a conversation about anyone or anything and I'm very comfortable in the language.

I'm not a master of ASL though, and I think that's an important distinction. I'm fluent enough to understand exactly how much further I can develop my skills in the language. I have a long ways to go before I could ever consider myself a "master" in the language.

Fluency doesn't happen overnight, it's a long road, but one day you'll realize that you really are fluent. Being fluent shouldn't mark the end of studying though, it's just a way-point, a sign post that says, "Ah, look how far I've come." Once you reach fluency you're in a position to truly understand how much of the language you've actually yet to truly understand and master. This isn't meant to be depressing though, rather, I find it to be enlightening and wonderful.

I really hope to reach this point in Japanese someday.

Bases on what the average person says -- "yeah I'm fluent"
I can converse with a Japanese person without sounding like "aligatorgozaimasu". :\

Especially since when the average person doesn't understand anything what we do here and I got annoyed when I got "ooh lame" when I said "I'm not fluent yet -- even though I can do a conversation and whatnot". /end rant

Personally I avoid the word "fluent" entirely, since it's a loaded term and the way different people define it varies too dramatically (from 挨拶程度 all the way to native level). Even if there were a firm definition everyone could agree on, language fluency does not equal cultural fluency, which is equally important for communication at anything beyond a superficial level.

Lately Japanese people I meet tend to doubt that I'm really a foreigner (and am instead a Japanese-born white guy or came here when I was very young etc). Cultural knowledge (real cultural knowledge, not pop culture), being able to つっこむ, bearing, tastes, gestures, social position etc all play a big part of that. Uchi-soto is alive and well and if you want real communicative fluency here you need to work your way into the uchi so that your conversational partner will talk to you as an equal.

I still wouldn't call myself fluent though, since I know there are certain gaps in my knowledge and my personal definition is "indistinguishable from a native in every regard except for perhaps a slight accent". Native level to me is that with zero accent. I've met a handful of Japanese people who I thought were Canadian-born because their English was that good.

I think definitions of fluency similar to this could be useful: http://www.is.wayne.edu/drbowen/CRTVYW99/Guilford.htm

I'll consider myself fluent when I don't have to ask people to repeat themselves so much for me. D:

dizmox Wrote:I'll consider myself fluent when I don't have to ask people to repeat themselves so much for me. D:

What do you consider "so much"?

nest0r Wrote:I think definitions of fluency similar to this could be useful: http://www.is.wayne.edu/drbowen/CRTVYW99/Guilford.htm

How does one become an equal? I been told by a Japanese woman, "it just doesn't happen with white people and that it is better to be foreign anyway so why should you want to?"

Jarvik7 Wrote:Personally I avoid the word "fluent" entirely, since it's a loaded term and the way different people define it varies too dramatically (from 挨拶程度 all the way to native level). Even if there were a firm definition everyone could agree on, language fluency does not equal cultural fluency, which is equally important for communication at anything beyond a superficial level.

Lately Japanese people I meet tend to doubt that I'm really a foreigner (and am instead a Japanese-born white guy or came here when I was very young etc). Cultural knowledge (real cultural knowledge, not pop culture), being able to つっこむ, bearing, tastes, gestures, social position etc all play a big part of that. Uchi-soto is alive and well and if you want real communicative fluency here you need to work your way into the uchi so that your conversational partner will talk to you as an equal.

I still wouldn't call myself fluent though, since I know there are certain gaps in my knowledge and my personal definition is "indistinguishable from a native in every regard except for perhaps a slight accent". Native level to me is that with zero accent. I've met a handful of Japanese people who I thought were Canadian-born because their English was that good.

Lately I've been thinking that, in order for someone to get fluent/native-level fluent. It isn't as hard as we think it is. But in order to get there we mut keep learning and learning. I've been feeling really good laltey about jp learning. It will take time to reach my goals but it isn't that bad at all. I'll just keep learning and learning until I reach it without knowing. But I won't stop learning, I'll probably just stop learning more and just less and less but I won't stop.

gyuujuice Wrote:Especially since when the average person doesn't understand anything what we do here and I got annoyed when I got "ooh lame" when I said "I'm not fluent yet -- even though I can do a conversation and whatnot". /end rant

Yes, this. I can hold a conversation for a long time in Japanese, read any book I pick up with, usually at max, 1 lookup per ~2 pages (naturally excluding technical and specialty books), watch any show I want with ~90%+ understanding first go, listen to music with high understanding, and do business in Japanese as well. However, I'm not fluent.

Yet, when someone finds out you speak another language, what's the first question? "Are you fluent?" If you say no, and proceed to explain why you don't believe you are, or qualify it with your abilities, the reaction will be disappointment no matter what. This is why I stopped saying no, and I just say, "Yep, pretty much." That's it, end of discussion.

Unless it's a linguist/language learner. Feel free to be technical on the terms of the fluency label then.

A quick edit I thought up after I posted:

I propose these three levels of answering when asked "Are you fluent" by a non-language learner:

1) "Nah, I'm a beginner still... can only say a few things"
2) "Not yet, still studying a lot."
3) "Sure am, come at me, bro"

Amend the language to your personal preference.

"Yet, when someone finds out you speak another language, what's the first question? "Are you fluent?" If you say no, and proceed to explain why you don't believe you are, or qualify it with your abilities, the reaction will be disappointment no matter what. This is why I stopped saying no, and I just say, "Yep, pretty much." That's it, end of discussion."

^ This. I think most people think the word fluent means having a basic understanding of the language (thank you Rosetta Stone) and being "fluent", by our terms, would be a waste of time or "super smart" -- not sure. Most of the time I am met with opposition, but honestly I have grown up since then find it amusing.

Rethinking this thread...

Level 0: Something quite special, perhaps?
Level 1: Native Level.
Level 2: Mastery (A high level of competency in all 4 skills plus the ability to communicate with a high understanding of how to communicate effectively.)
Level 3: Fluency (can read, write, speak and understand a language to an advanced level.)
Level 4: Everyone else.

Maybe looking at it as "Fluency" being an advanced stage of use with 2 other levels that express the complexity of the language helps to distinguish that fluency is perhaps more of a beginning than an end. Less black and white, but more a spectrum of grays leading from A to B.

I think fluent for me is to be able to write, read, speak and think in a language with comfort, as you would do with your native language.

I consider myself fluent in English and I actually do a lot of things in English everyday (reading tutorials, reading forums, news, etc.) and it doesn’t cost me a lot. Sometimes I even think in English.

I think fluency isn't about perfection or knowing every word it exist. It’s like your native language, It’s normal to have mistakes when you speak or write, and I don’t know every word in Spanish (there are really some weird words), but I steel can get everything from context.

For me:

Basic 1: you can order food.
Basic 2: You can ask for directions, read signs, follow directions.

Intermediate 1: You can read and listen to material targeted to natives, understanding some of it.

<> Fluency is somewhere around here.

Intermediate 2: You can speak/write about the subjects you are used to read/listen.

Advanced 1: You can read/listen to any subject.
Advanced 2: You can speak/write about anything you want/need.