Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 306
Thanks:
0
The reality is that very few people begin the study of a language and ever reach a point where having conversations with natives is possible, let alone comfortable and pleasant, and that, even when people learn a language close to theirs. Any definition of fluent has to account for that.
I take a less pragmatic approach and I say that you are fluent when you can take part in conversations in the language, particularly when several natives are involved. Fluent is not a mesure of perfection and does not mean that you can speak like a native -- this is statistically extremely rare, especially when the language study began in adulthood.
If I meet a speaker of my language and he or she can withhold a conversation without inserting huge pauses or creating undue stress because their sentences are incomprehensible, I have no problem saying that they are fluent.
Interestingly, people reach fluency at very different times, and some people may have a better mastery of the written language than others, and yet not be able to speak well. My knowledge of Japanese is far from perfect, and my vocabulary is not awesome in any way, but I do call myself fluent. I've discussed this with some Japanese friends and they agree. I'm probably just C1 (sometimes B2 I suppose), but what I know, I know well and I can speak freely with very few pauses or hesitations. Some people reach C2 and still can't do that, so it probably depends a lot on your focus or goal. My goal was always to speak with natives, and I do it regularly.
日本語が流暢に話せる外国人が少ないのは少ないんだけど、外国語が話せる日本人も少ないよ。言語が全然違うのだから当たり前ですよ。
Edited: 2011-03-11, 10:34 am
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,174
Thanks:
0
I asked another person I know and they said. Don't worry about it, if you have the desire to gain high proficiency in another language in alll skills and have made really good progress. You'll get there eventually.
Originally I was thinking that, wait don't languages take a decade to reach fluency? But now I'm thinking, thanks to the srs. This pretty much can get cut in half(5 years).
There are plenty of people who have reached fluency in another language, ranging from 3-5 years. So I definitely should not worry about it, I practically do nothing but Japanese learning daily. If I enjoy it and have made good progress, than there should be nothing from stopping me to reach fluency
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,668
Thanks:
0
I like to consider myself fluent now (but not yet near native), after about 3.5 years. I think I had basic fluency after about 2 years. I think I could have accellerated my progress my focusing more on listening and less on fighting my way through difficult texts in the beginning stages, even though this is great for learning tonnes of vocab. Basically I think to get 'fluent' (ie speaking ability), you need a to focus on your listening ability and vocabulary and particularly connecting the two rather than just having tonnes of words you only recognise on paper. Other than that while I basically think language acquisition comes from input, I think a small amount of output (ie conversation) is favorable. I'm not sure how much that should be as a percentage of study time, but it should definately be non-zero imo, because it forces improvements in your grammar intuition.
Edited: 2011-03-11, 10:07 pm
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 361
Thanks:
0
I converse with native speakers whenever I get the chance even rambling off a few sentences as long as its clear. I'm not in the formal stage of practicing sentences yet but I still don't let sentences pass me by if its something I want to know. My sentence deck has what maybe 75 sentences that I picked up off japanese friends. What I'm saying is I agree that conversation is great to help solidify the grammar in your mind and never favor one study method over another, rather use the best resource available at the time. And I hope I can converse more regularly by the time I'm done with study abroad summer of 2012.
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,174
Thanks:
0
I'm starting to get relaxed on my learning now. I believe for me, once anyone reaches that 90% mark in terms of speaking/listening. They can say there fluent in terms of the spoken language. But if someone can read/write to that 90%+ range, they can consider themselves fluent in reading/written language.
Overall, that's solid fluency in all skills. Native-level is just being able to do the stuff natives do in your age group(i'm in college, so I'd have to be able to do the exact same things college students in japan would do in terms of speaking,writing,listening and reading)
Edited: 2011-03-12, 12:11 am
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 468
Thanks:
0
P.s., Originally, "fluency" meant "the ability to speak fast". If you can speak fast, then you're sorted. Doesn't have to be grammatical or using correct vocabulary in context, btw.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,017
Thanks:
0
I only know that word after reading George Orwell's 1984. I suspect anyone who hasn't read the book (or seen the movie) probably wouldn't know it.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 755
Thanks:
0
Anyone fairly interested in politics would know it.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 755
Thanks:
0
We learnt it in middle school, grade 9, although it was very basic and I've now rejected most of what was taught.
. I know some things are clicking though since now when I hear Japanese I understand a bit more it's actually surprising too me I bet listening to Japanese music and watching Japanese Movies etc... has assisted in some way or another. 日本語はむずかしでも俺はがんばりますじょうずになりたいだからがんばります。
