There's so much posted on the forums already so I really wanted to avoid making a new thread asking my stupid questions. I spent a few hours over the last few weeks looking browsing through the forums looking at other people's study methods and the awesome resources everyone shared. Admittedly, I should have spent those time studying rather than "looking for the magic bullet" but there's a few things that I really want to clarify.

My plan is to:
-Get a pretty good understanding about basic grammar so I can start using the Core2k decks to learn vocabulary while understanding most of the grammar in their sentences.
-Also make a sentence deck where I put sentences that I really want to learn when I come across them in drama/anime/podcasts etc.

Current Situation:
-Recently finished RTKI
-Had nearly no grammar. So I finished the basic grammar section Tae Kim and I'm currently using Japanese the Manga Way.

I have very little vocab right now so when I read through Tae Kim, I see new words appearing in almost every sentence. This was a major distraction to the actual grammar points so after a while I gave up on learning the vocab and just focused on the grammar points. (I'm doing the same most of the time for JMW)

So I was just wondering, is this an okay or a really stupid thing to do? I would love to learn most of the vocab as they're slowly introduced in JMW because a lot of them are quite interesting but I feel drained and lose focus when I try to do that.

That being said, there are times when I REALLY want to learn a certain sentence or vocab and to put them in a "Sentence Deck" (similar to what Khatzumoto, but less hardcore?). I was hoping someone can shed some light on how to go about it?
- My personal aim for these sentences is to be able to both verbally use and know how to write/type it. If I go J(sentence)-Eng or even J(sentence)-J(explanation), wouldn't that just help me with comprehending the sentence in it's written form? Does this mean that if I want to be able to comprehend a sentence in it's written form and verbal form and to produce it myself, I'll have to create several copies of it with preferably audio attached? (Similar to the way the Core2k decks?)

I'm really sorry for the rambling. I have real problem with ordering my thoughts and expressing myself (yes even in English <__<). I'm sure there's some questions that I forgot to mention hm...

I would start Core2k now. The first step is very simple grammar. I have gotten through Genki 1+2. After spending a year studying, I still run into grammar I don't know in Core2k. I use these grammar dictionaries. (You can find them in pdf form online, which is nice for on the go.)
http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Basic-J...4789004546
http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Interme...4789007758
http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Advance...B001GOVW4M

The way I have my Core6k deck set up on Anki is that I have just the audio play for the question. On the answer side, I have the sentence in Japanese and English. If you wanted, you could easily test both writing and listening and practice speaking with this layout. Also, I keep all the cards suspended except the lowest step I'm on. Then when I come across a word I want to learn, I search for it in Anki and unsuspend it. If I can't find a word, which is rare, then I look for it in a sentence elsewhere and add it to my Core6k deck.

Spaced repetition audio flash cards has helped me progress more than anything else, and I highly recommend starting on it asap. I studied Japanese on my own for a six-month period before taking it at my university. I was able to test into second-year Japanese, but I could hardly communicate or understand the professor though. Core2k has helped me the most in terms of building vocab, grammar, listening and speaking, but I do suggest listening to full dialogues as well. Most textbooks come with a CD with them on it. I don't think the Manga Way does, so you might want to pick up another as your main textbook and use the Manga Way as a supplement. Of the books I've used, I really liked Genki 1+2 and Ultimate Japanese Beginner to Intermediate. Both have dialogues and listening comprehension on their CDs.

If you use the sixth coupon code down, you can get a month of JapanesePod101 for $1. I just did this, downloaded everything from their site using iTunes and canceled my auto-pay subscription via Paypal. From what I've seen, the lessons seem really good, but I would avoid their kanji practice sheets. They just use the typewritten font, but if you've already done rtk, you should be fine in that regard.
http://www.retailmenot.com/view/japanesepod101.com

I hope that helps, and good luck with your studies.

Wow thanks for the lengthly and detailed reply ^^:

-I have copies pdf copies of the basic Japanese grammar dictionary but I haven't tried using it yet because there's no search function. So I might consider buying it.
-Searching for words in core2k you want to learn... "facepalms", why didn't I think of that?
-Japanesepod101, I knew I was forgetting something. I actually did what you did 2 years ago (yes I tried to learn japanese 3 years ago but I gave up and started seriously again last summer) and downloaded all audio content & PDF available at the time. Now I can find vocab I learn from that podcast in the core2k/6k decks hehe.

~本当にありがとうございました!

You need a lot of input more than anything else. What sort of stories do you like? What sort of music? Do you read non-fiction?

I merged my existing core2k deck with a 6k deck after removing the copies, makes for a GREAT search area for vocab, and grammar patterns you might not be familiar with
( at least for me )

I've got the ko2001 deck going too. Between the 2 of them, I've got a great source for sentences! ( I bought ko2001 books 1 and 2 )

I have all 3 of those dictionaries on my shelf. I strongly urge anyone ti buy them ( or at LEAST the basic if you're still new to the grammar game, the others CAN wait a bit if it's too much to pay at once )

They are the SINGLE best purchase I've made in my Japanese learning experience, I want to make sure the authors get due credit for their work, and it's super easy to just flip it open to a grammar point you're looking for.

One pitfall, the grammar is sorted by the english alphabet's order. No big deal.
The basic book also has romaji in addition to kanji, but the intermediate and advanced get rid of it so I forgive thet.

Just like you, I finished RTK1 in Feb. and have little grammar and vocab. But I also did Pimsleur last year, which I cannot recommend enough.

My personal approach is three-fold: for vocab, I learn by heart the Oxford Beginner's Japanese Dictionary. The way I go about it is to record on a mp3 one page per day and listen on my mp3 whenever I go to the gym or walk. The records are always production, namely english + pause 5 seconds + japanese. After 3-4 listenings, I usually can produce. Since there are only 200 pages in that dictionary, I will finish within a year.

For refining my understanding of the Kanji, I and going through Halpern Kodansha Kanji Learner's dictionary and update the keywords from Heisig in my anki file as I go. I find this essential to learn the multiple meanings of each kanji. I write down in my notebook three compounds for each kanji, which I review every day. I also make an Anki file for this.

Finally, for grammar, I am recording examples sentences from Naoko Chino's "Japanese verbs at a Glance", which I find excellent. I am also recording conjugation tables which I listen every day. I have other such grammar books lined up after I finish this one. I find the 3 dictionaries of japanese grammar frustrating, since information is just scattered all over. Focusing on verbs first has the advantage of getting out of the way the most complex part of jap grammar.

After 1-2 years of doing this, I will simply go on and read novels, etc. I do not care much about Tae Kim (too simplistic and I don't trust a Korean guy to teach me jap grammar through a website!), nor do I care much about core2K, since after Pimsleur, I find Japanese very easy to pronounce.

wildweathel Wrote:You need a lot of input more than anything else. What sort of stories do you like? What sort of music? Do you read non-fiction?

I really haven't done any reading. and even when I do, I haven't tried actively learning the vocab. Music - hah, I listen to literally whatever I come across. I somehow jumped from pop(宇多田ヒカル、YUI)　to enka/Ballads (前川清,徳永英明）　and now to pop and rock again (ONE-OK-ROCK,嵐). When I'm on breaks, I watched live performances of 宇多田ヒカル　or something follow along the lyrics of songs that I'm familiar with with Rikaichan.

I'm actually unsure of what am I suppose to do when I'm reading Japanese. Should I be trying to interpret every single sentence, looking at all the vocabulary and grammar contained in it. Well now following Prink's idea, it'll be easier to learn new interesting vocab.

Dustin_Calgary Wrote:I've got the ko2001 deck going too. Between the 2 of them, I've got a great source for sentences! ( I bought ko2001 books 1 and 2 )

Oh I was just wondering about your Ko(Kanji Odyssey I'm assuming?) decks, do you have audio in them? or do you just study with the text and go to listen to the announcer if necessary? (Actually, is KO a book? I thought it was a CD O_O)

louischa Wrote:I learn by heart the Oxford Beginner's Japanese Dictionary. The way I go about it is to record on a mp3 one page per day and listen on my mp3 whenever I go to the gym or walk. ....

Finally, for grammar, I am recording examples sentences from Naoko Chino's "Japanese verbs at a Glance", which I find excellent. I am also recording conjugation tables which I listen every day....

nor do I care much about core2K, since after Pimsleur, I find Japanese very easy to pronounce....

It was really interesting to read your approach ^^, very different to what I had planned for myself. Just a few questions:
-Er... I actually have a dictionary in my hand right now called "Oxford Beginner's Japanese Dictionary". I bought it in a book shop in Hong Kong so it might be different somehow? but my one has 464 pages in total O_O (although some of the last pages are cultural blah blah). It is completely in Japanese/English though.
-By record, do you mean you record yourself saying the words and example sentences from Naoko Chino?
-I don't have a huge problem with pronouncing Japanese but such a long time of just reading Japanese mainly, I have really bad intonation. Hopefully, that will improve now that I actually try to speak Japanese with Japanese people.

When I started KO2001, I had already completed Genki 1. There were a lot of grammar points I didn't know, as well as 3-4 new vocabulary terms per sentence. I constantly referred to Tae Kim or DOJG series as I went through KO2001.

I've noticed the following:
-Isolating vocabulary from grammar is very difficult in the beginning
Vocab is what you say and grammar is how you say it. You need both to really understand a sentence. Isolating each one is pretty difficult, although you can prioritize one over the other. In the beginning, isolation is extremely difficult. I'm sure you can make a whole bunch of grammar points using only 5 words, but it's not particularly helpful. It's much more useful to learn very basic grammar in conjunction with vocabulary, and vice versa.

-The beginning is a real grind
You'll be bombarded with new grammar structures or new vocabulary every time you study. Stick with it. You might only cover 20 sentences in 15 minutes, but it's something that HAS to be done. As you get better, you'll speed up and it'll be easier to learn more. The most important part is to get the often-used fundamentals down, both vocabulary and grammar. I've noticed that as I'm going through Kanzen Grammar 2kyuu, some of the grammar points became much easier to understand after I recognized the fundamental grammar/vocabulary. Even sentences from KO2001 are sticking more quickly now that I don't have to struggle with particles.

-Understanding vocabulary/grammar is completely different from using it.

Quote:- My personal aim for these sentences is to be able to both verbally use and know how to write/type it. If I go J(sentence)-Eng or even J(sentence)-J(explanation), wouldn't that just help me with comprehending the sentence in it's written form? Does this mean that if I want to be able to comprehend a sentence in it's written form and verbal form and to produce it myself, I'll have to create several copies of it with preferably audio attached? (Similar to the way the Core2k decks?)

Yes.
I don't know what the Core2k decks look like, but production and listening are definitely different concepts that have to be practiced.

PensukeD Wrote:

Dustin_Calgary Wrote:I've got the ko2001 deck going too. Between the 2 of them, I've got a great source for sentences! ( I bought ko2001 books 1 and 2 )

Oh I was just wondering about your Ko(Kanji Odyssey I'm assuming?) decks, do you have audio in them? or do you just study with the text and go to listen to the announcer if necessary? (Actually, is KO a book? I thought it was a CD O_O)

Ko 2001 is a 2 book series, also available as an e-book.

The most recent e-book cd came with full sentence audio!
The audio is on my ko2001 anki deck ^_^

Since I bought the books I don't feel bad using the cd audio since the option wasn't available when i purchased the books, but the e-books users essentially got a free upgrade :p

PensukeD Wrote:-I have copies pdf copies of the basic Japanese grammar dictionary but I haven't tried using it yet because there's no search function. So I might consider buying it.
-Searching for words in core2k you want to learn... "facepalms", why didn't I think of that?

The dictionaries are definitely worth the money. I own the first two. I just hate carrying them around, and I am not always home when I want to use them. I intend to get the third one once I've used it enough to warrant buying it. There's no search options in the pdf, since it's a bootleg copy. The index is very well done though, and I think the advanced book indexes all the entries of all three books. It won't help you look up words, but there are plenty of other online options for that.

If you mean that you'd like to search for vocab within those grammar books, someone typed EVERY single sentence up that appears in all three and made an Anki deck for them. No audio though, of course. Still, the deck is very impressive nonetheless. I don't SRS it, but several times I have resorted to using it when Core6k didn't have words I was looking for in sentences.

PensukeD Wrote:-"The way I have my Core6k deck set up on Anki is that I have just the audio play for the question. On the answer side, I have the sentence in Japanese and English.", so you just suspend everything else? (like the E-J)

I don't have English to Japanese cards, but I did do English to Japanese cards when I first began studying. I found that it really slowed my thinking. Whenever I wanted to say something in Japanese, I would have to begin with English. I still keep the English in the answer for comparison purposes. I don't rely on them though.

Ultimately, you want to be able to understand whats being said without needing to think of the answer in English. Otherwise, keeping up with even a normal paced conversation that only uses grammar and vocab you're comfortable with can be difficult. Participating in said conversation would be even more difficult. (I found this out the hard way while practicing Japanese in class and with my language partners.) This is the most difficult aspect of learning any language. I don't think enough emphasis is put on this within the Japanese learning community. This is also why I suggest textbook dialogues. Genki is really slow at times, but some of the dialogues and the listening practices of the later lessons are pretty good. The audio from Ultimate Japanese has been incredibly useful in my studies, and I think that it is one of the fastest amongst beginner textbooks. The audio can be found online, but I don't think the book in pdf form can. I was able to find jpegs, but they were not of the entire book. Anyways, I liked it enough to buy the book, and it was fairly cheap. (I think there might be two books with the same title, so I will post a link to the one I have when I get home.) I will say that there were some cases where I edited out some of the awkward and unnatural sounding 2-4 second pauses and sped the audio up by about 1.1 times. The purpose of doing so is to prevent me from resorting to English and improve my listening.

From what I've heard of so far, JapanesePod101 has some good dialogues as well, and I recommend giving it a try. It's definitely worth a dollar, and if you find it useful, I'd suggest actually subscribing in the long run. I haven't had a chance to go through it all that thoroughly, so I can't say what I think it's worth.

Here's how my cards are laid out.
Side A:
Audio

Side B:
Japanese sentence
English Translation

PensukeD Wrote:Wow thanks for the lengthly and detailed reply ^^:
~本当にありがとうございました!

Of course! It's always hard at first, so I understand exactly what you're going through. It'll get easier as time goes on. Just do doing a little bit each day, and you'll get there.

Good luck!

prink Wrote:If you mean that you'd like to search for vocab within those grammar books, someone typed EVERY single sentence up that appears in all three and made an Anki deck for them. No audio though, of course. Still, the deck is very impressive nonetheless. I don't SRS it, but several times I have resorted to using it when Core6k didn't have words I was looking for in sentences.

Where is this Deck! I'd love to index the series for examples! The books are phenomenal.

I did a quick board search and looked at the downloadable decks and found nothing ><

Thanks again Prink. I'm clipping this page to Evernote xD

@Dustin did you make the KO deck yourself or did you download it from shared decks or something? (If so, which one?)

PensukeD Wrote:Thanks again Prink. I'm clipping this page to Evernote xD

@Dustin did you make the KO deck yourself or did you download it from shared decks or something? (If so, which one?)

Neither, I got it from an old thread no longer normally accessible on this forum

:p

Dustin_Calgary Wrote:

prink Wrote:If you mean that you'd like to search for vocab within those grammar books, someone typed EVERY single sentence up that appears in all three and made an Anki deck for them. No audio though, of course. Still, the deck is very impressive nonetheless. I don't SRS it, but several times I have resorted to using it when Core6k didn't have words I was looking for in sentences.

Where is this Deck! I'd love to index the series for examples! The books are phenomenal.

I did a quick board search and looked at the downloadable decks and found nothing ><

It's in Anki's shared decks. It's called: "8555 Japanese Sentences - from the 日本語文法辞典"

prink Wrote:It's in Anki's shared decks. It's called: "8555 Japanese Sentences - from the 日本語文法辞典"

No wonder I couldn't find it.

Thanks! Downloaded!

louischa Wrote:I learn by heart the Oxford Beginner's Japanese Dictionary. The way I go about it is to record on a mp3 one page per day and listen on my mp3 whenever I go to the gym or walk. ....

Finally, for grammar, I am recording examples sentences from Naoko Chino's "Japanese verbs at a Glance", which I find excellent. I am also recording conjugation tables which I listen every day....

nor do I care much about core2K, since after Pimsleur, I find Japanese very easy to pronounce....

PensukeD Wrote:It was really interesting to read your approach ^^, very different to what I had planned for myself. Just a few questions:
-Er... I actually have a dictionary in my hand right now called "Oxford Beginner's Japanese Dictionary". I bought it in a book shop in Hong Kong so it might be different somehow? but my one has 464 pages in total O_O (although some of the last pages are cultural blah blah). It is completely in Japanese/English though.
-By record, do you mean you record yourself saying the words and example sentences from Naoko Chino?
-I don't have a huge problem with pronouncing Japanese but such a long time of just reading Japanese mainly, I have really bad intonation. Hopefully, that will improve now that I actually try to speak Japanese with Japanese people.

Yes, you have the same dictionary as mine. I am just recording myself, reading the E->J half (the second half), from A to Z (page 207 to 427), with 5 second pauses in between. I just read the kana sentences, since each sentence is written fully in kana and another time with kanji. I like the short sentence snippets; I find them easy to remember as opposed to longer sentences. And all the vocab in it is really useful. I also like the structure: they usually present a cluster of small english expressions around a given word and give the japanese equivalents.

For instance, p. 212 you have "to ANSWER a question", to ANSWER the phone", to ANSWER back". Each of these expressions uses a different verb when tranlated to Japanese. I find it just invaluable to learn to say these small snippets in japanese because it teaches you the differences in verb usage that are non-obvious to an english speaker. Mind you, before knowing that, I would have (incorrectly) used "kotaeru" in these three situations. And I would have gotten the "eeeeeeeeee" of perplexity when you say something in japanese that is not understood. I like the "eeeeeeee", though. I remember my j-girlfriend sounding that "eeeeeeeeee" when I first picked her up ;-) You know you are getting somewhere when you get the "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"!

I also like the feeling of thoroughness in coverage that comes with "reading" a dictionary, in my case "speaking" a dictionary.

As for the recordings, I decided to do them (just with a microphone and Audacity (a free mp3 recorder) - Google it, it has a very easy setup) because I noticed I remember things much better when I hear them, as with Pimsleur. But some people despise Pimsleur, and it depends whether you are an aural learner or not. Brains are wired differently from person to person. Your mileage may vary. Personally, I find anki somewhat boring and having mp3 files recorded means that I can review stuff whenever I want to. In anki, you are the slave of the scheduling algorithm and you need to be in front of your computer.

I indeed do the same with the sentences from Naoko Chino. The next book in line is Taeko Kamiya, "The handbook of japanese adjectives and adverbs".

Best of luck with your studies. As someone said on this forum - the important thing is not to find the "perfect" approach - because many roads lead to Rome. The important thing is to find a resource you like and stick to it, and just learn it bit by bit every day.