Hello. I'll try to keep this as short as possible. Sorry.
I'm moving to Japan in 8 months (March 2013) and I'm basically learning Japanese from 0 aside from a couple years of Japanese media which has made me familiar with aah about 100 vocab words, simple things like greetings and such. My goal is to have 3000 kanji and 3000 vocabulary words finished by March and have sentence structure, conversational ability, and overall fluency at hopefully about middle school level at least by then.
Sounds like alot but in these 8 months I do have the time to study full time and do nothing else.
Right now I study 6 hours a day religiously, sunday is review & research day.
I basically would like opinions on current study method and if its the best path for me to meet my goal.


I've finished reading remembering the kana so I have all the kana down. Now I'm going through RTK1 (sadly only lesson 7).
Heres my study method. (with breaks inbetween)
2 - hours of Rtk1 (2 lessons)
2 - hours of review (1 1/2 hour of kanji, 1/2 kana)
1 - hour of videos (let's learn japanese basic & video lesson blogs on youtube like culturequirk, all the different blogs I watch lack vocabulary)
1 - hour of ???

I'm looking to fill at least one more hour with something. One thing I really liked about remembering the kana was once you learned a character it would give you sample words with that character plus only other characters you've already learned.
It would be Greatt if there were something like that for remembering the kanji so that I could see only the kanji Ive learned used in simple sentences that way I'm learning kanji + grammar + vocabulary + pronunciation. But I don't know if such a thing exists, at the very least I am very interested in learning vocab while I learn kanji. I've read some say its better to learn kanji first then vocab but really I can manage and have time for both and don't want to let 3 months go down the drain and still have the same vocabulary level. I don't know of any good vocab compliment to rtk though. I have the core2k anki sample deck but not being able to break down and be taught the sentences along with the vocab words is frustrating, but if its my best option Ill just use it. I also have tae kims website bookmarked which I could use to fill that hour but wanted to ask a few people first in case there's something better I don't know of. Buying a textbook used in schools though is almost completely out of the question as I have alot of trouble focusing and learning from that method. At some point after the kanji maybe 3 months or so from now I was thinking of hiring a Japanese tutor to study with me about 3 hours per day. That's where I was planning on getting grammar and conversation focused on. So yeah thats why I wanted to have some vocabulary done, I'll have rtk1 done by then and would be great if I had maybe 1000 vocab words for the tutor to work with (but maybe tutoring isn't necessary if I have a really good self study plan and I should save the money for moving instead? I don't have much). Any opinions would be SUGOI x)

Thank you for reading.

first of all, you don't need 3000 kanji...
Just learn the jouyou kanji (2000 or so).

In fact, if you were to focus on vocabulary rather than kanji, you'd probably know know tens of thousands of words before you ever learned 3000 kanji.

I wouldn't spend 4 hours a day just on kanji/kana. You're better off spending an hour or so a day on kanji (and not necessarily RTK) and then devoting the rest of your time to reading and listening to whatever content that provides a balance of easiness and interestingness. That could be youtube videos, it could be a text book.

There's no way you're going to have 'middle school level' fluency in 8 months. A middle school japanese kid has be learning japanese full time for 12-15 years.

6 hours a day may lead to burn out.

there is this thing in the "Labs" page at the review page which has a sort of thing that generate random vocabulary words based on the kanjis you know.

I can't really give you any advice though, as I haven't really got any far myself. I'm trying to use sentence mining though from textbooks/grammar lessons; in other words, I put sentences with one or two unfamiliar words/grammar elements into an anki deck and review them that way.

The way I learnt to write in kana was to basically write names and stuff of people and places (katakana) and reading random japanese text without understanding it at all (hiragana). I looked up those I didn't know, and after a while, all of them stuck. I tend to mix up ぬ and め, and so on though.

Honestly I really like the website iKnow.jp in terms of learning vocab, practicing listening, pronounciation and being exposed to sentences with translations. it works based on an SRS system too. Plus there's a really cool game called brainspeed and also a dictation app. It contains core 1000 all the way to core 6000 and each core has 1000 vocabulary words to learn but you also learn others through being exposed to the sentences. It's a paid subscription, but for a beginner starting from zero I think it's worth it and it's affordable. it's $6/month for a year. check it out.

I would recommend NOT doing RTK. Do RTK light or RTK ultralight. In my opinion, RTK has two main purposes. One is to get a new learner used to the kanji. It turns kanji from something frightening into to something easily conquerable. This is easily obtained with RTK light or RTK ultralight. The other purpose is to get you able to write 2000 kanji. Since you only have 8 months, I would really recommend not worrying about this. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've ever needed to write kanji and not been able to look it up.

What you should be doing instead is learning vocabulary, learning grammar, and really working on your listening.

Vocab
--------
Do Core6000 (or something similar). If you really have as much time as you say you have, then you can probably finish this before you leave. I would say this is the most important thing to do. (You might want to start this after finishing Genki I&II and Tae Kim's guide. If there are any sentences you don't understand maybe look it up in a grammar guide like the Big Dictionary of Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced Grammar or whatever those books are called.)

Grammar
--------------
Go through a beginner's textbook. You really only need to go through something like Genki I&II. Just mine sentences and throw them in Anki. Try to get audio if possible. You don't need to do the exercises or anything. If you don't have the concentration to be able to do this, I doubt you will be able to succeed.

After finishing this go through Tae Kim's guide. Do the cloze-delete deck if you want.

After finishing this start to work towards finishing JLPT N2 grammar. Honestly, you should be able to at least make your way to N2, if not completely finish N2 before you leave. Basically just try to throw everything in an Anki deck. I would even say you don't need to do cloze-delete style. Just do recognition.

Listening
-------------
Try to get audio in Anki as much as possible. The bulk of your reps should be made up by Core6000, which has audio.

Try to make an immersion environment just like Khatz says. Make sure to do active listening, not just passive listening


The Result
---------------
If you really spend 6+ hours a day studying, you honestly should be able to make it to at least N3 or N2 level. This is far, far, far from the level of a middle schooler, but it should enable you to get around Japan very easily. Producing sentences will be very difficult at first (because I've set it up so you are doing mostly recognition), but you will be talking Japanese everyday, so it should only take you a couple months to become relatively fluent. Upon arriving in Japan, you should be able to understand a good deal of what you hear and read.

Warning
------------
You have a large chance of burning out. 6+ hours is a lot of time. You will basically need an iron will. If you are already saying you don't want to study from a text book and you don't want to study grammar, I highly doubt you will be able to get anywhere at all in 8 months.

I am going to disagree.
I would say finish RTK and then go onto to Core 2000/6000 when you're done.

2000 Kanji isn't that big of a deal. It took me 2 months. In general, you can take 1-6 months to finish RTK.

I think 4 hours of RTK and reviewing is too much (especially if you're using this website).

1 hour to learn new kanji and 30 minutes review is enough.

I would also spend time on grammar. You can use Genki, Tae Kim, or (I recommend) Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar.

If I were you, I'd go straight into watching Japanese TV dramas with Japanese subtitles (http://www.d-addicts.com). Don't worry about understanding every word. Over time, you'll hear certain words more often and realize which ones are important. After finishing RTK, then you can use the drama subtitles to learn vocabulary (since you can copy/paste the words, it is really helpful). Watching drama will dramatically improve your listening and help you to get used to hearing Japanese at native speed. If you can't make out a word, just look at the subtitles.

Also, maybe try to read some manga. Try to find an easy one (Yatsubato is popular).

Thanks for all the replies so far and all of the effort put into them.
Very appreciated.

-just learn 2000 joukou.

ok noted. I read a college student is able to recognize about 3000 kanji so that's why I was shooting for that number but what you said makes sense so I will probably put the rest off till later.

-labs

thanks for that it was I was hoping for I'll check it out. and about the kana I learned that so no problem there.

-grammar
No no I didn't mean I didn't want to study grammar I very much want to do that. Reading and writing when I get there is actually for my specific situation probably more important for me than even speaking. But not more important than being able to listen. Sort of like in the case of a student (which I also will be). So I very much want to learn grammar and writing sentences, and looking forward to it. I just meant the particular method of learning from a physical text book is difficult for me. The very same information in the form of online exercises would work much better for me. My rtk and kana books aren't even physical copies I read them online. Something about books weakens me hah.

-immersion environment.

Noted, will do.

-Japanese dramas and manga

Yes I have been doing this, though with anime, I heard it was simpler. In between my lessons I take breaks and watch anime episodes. I watch 3-4 a day. I even tried a method of watching an episode and then watching the same episode with a piece of paper taped to the screen blocking the subtitles listening for what I could grab. But this is something that will be more useful to me after I learn more vocabulary. I don't know enough right now. I'm only getting maybe 30 words per episode.
Manga however I'm saving for the final four months of my studies after I've learned kanji and some vocab and can actually understand some of raw untranslated versions.

Thank you for those suggestions. I will use this forum topic for reference.

Couple things,
6 hours a day is alright for me, its already a reduction from how I've studied other subject successfully. Thank you for the concern though I do have an iron will once I choose to do something. I have the "give up on me giving up!" mentality. I get upset when I Can't do 6 hours at least and a couple times in the week do 7.
The reason why my reviews are as long as my studies is to make SURE I've got it in my brain and not just on paper. And I space them out throughout the day and between lessons.
I'm aware of burnout what I failed to mention was that itll be 8 months of study but cut in half of two 4 month phases. The first four months being hardcore cramming rigorous memorization (which I'm good at) of kanji and vocab. The 2nd four months being alot more leisurely, applying what I've learned by reading things like manga, writing sentences, working at a lighter pace with a tutor. But in order to do that well I would have to already know kanji and some vocab. So very very intense study in first four months, more relaxed and leisurely in 2nd fours months to prevent burning out.


The reason I am putting in so many hours of kanji is so that I can finish the book already and learn vocabulary. I've tried learning a few vocab words already but not knowing kanji hinders this. I'm giving myself till Oct. 1st. Two months and three weeks. At my current rate I could finish rtk in two months but I'm giving myself the extra 3 weeks to really make sure I've got them down and in case of any unforeseen events.

This is what it looks like my two options are.

1. Focus on Kanji for the next 2 months and three weeks finishing the book, making vocab excel and alot easier and faster to learn since I'm familiar with kanji (though I would not have learned to read or pronounce them not having read rtk2 but I'm sure Ill learn how to do that while learning vocab words). And do very very basic and not very helpful vocab and grammar through videos with the last 2 hours of daily study.

2. Or option two, four hours a day focusing on reading and listening and the last two study hours on learning sentences which will teach me grammar + vocab + kanji BUT all at a slower rate since my focus is on listening and reading. Like in the suggestion mentioned of doing rtk light or ultralight and having to go back and forth looking things up, having to do that consistently may slow down my learning process.

It seems like the general consensus of what you guys are saying to do here is more like the 2nd option. And I agree grammar, vocab, listening, kanji, and reading are all better to do together if possible. But the key it seems to me is the kanji part. I feel like that process overall would in the end go slower if I'm also having to learn kanji along with it. So instead if I cram hard on kanji for 2 months and three weeks doing the second option then would go a lot faster not having to familiarize myself with kanji as I go. But this is just theory maybe kanji will come easier to me if I'm learning it in context of sentences, vocabulary and sounds which is what it sounds like you guys are suggesting.


Anyway tanks ALOT for the replies it is helping me a ton and I'm spending the day in contemplation (plus 2 hours of review I've already done and at least one kanji lesson later. I can't help myself..must learn..) and will do things differently this week than I have been so thank you.

Taylor Wrote:I've finished reading remembering the kana so I have all the kana down. Now I'm going through RTK1 (sadly only lesson 7).
Heres my study method. (with breaks inbetween)
2 - hours of Rtk1 (2 lessons)
2 - hours of review (1 1/2 hour of kanji, 1/2 kana)
1 - hour of videos (let's learn japanese basic & video lesson blogs on youtube like culturequirk, all the different blogs I watch lack vocabulary)
1 - hour of ???

You're moving to Japan permanently, for a couple of months, etc? What are your priorities and how much time available for study will you have once you go there?

IMO, RTK is perfectly doable in 2 or 3 months and I think it'll be better to get done with that as soon as possible. What calls my attention is that you use as much time for reviews as for studying. Studying each kanji can take you several minutes depending on your speed and methods, but reviewing each kanji/kana shouldn't take you much more than 30 seconds.

If you have an iron will as you say, you could probably learn 1 Japanese word for each kanji. That way you could end your first 3 months knowing 2.000 kanji AND 2.000 words at least.

I personally write each kanji once with a dry-erase marker, and after a while I check them, see each kanji and recall a word that uses it and erase it, leaving my hand-made "mini whiteboard" ready for the next time. That way I get 2 reviews for the price of 1.

I second the advice about using some audio course for beginners. You could check Japanesepod101.com, it seems there lessons are good. You could also use them for shadowing.

If you go out regularly and have a portable media player, you can put all audio from audio courses, multimedia Anki decks, podcasts etc in your player and listen to it while commuting.

For efficiency, you could use media that complement each other. For example, read a manga and watch it's anime version (taking into account that not all anime are the same that the manga). You could also watch dubbed movies that you already know and like in the original English version. That way you already know the lines and can pay attention on how they translate it to Japanese, and have fun at the same time. You could also eventually read Japanese translated versions of well known stories you've already read in English, like simple fairy tails, etc.

One last piece of advice would be: whatever plan you make, most probably you will have to be tweaking it several times as time passes. Don't be too fixed on preestablished plans and just improve them once in a while if you feel you have to.

Good luck.

-divide time

oh I wasn't setting out spaces of time for each thing, per say. I meant I thought if I learned kanji along with reading writing grammar vocab & everything ect it would slow everything down as opposed to focusing mainly on just kanji, then after, everything else at the same time which would go faster since I was familiar with kanji. Downside to that was 3 months from now I would still be at the same vocab level what a waste that would be.
So what I decided was I would at least learn the meaning and pronunciation of the kanji I learn as I go instead of waiting to read the 2nd book. At least then I'd know 2k written kanji and hopefully remembered most pronunciations and meanings.
Sebastian suggested this too but I may not be able to learn one additional vocab word plus the kanji definition, which would actually be 4k words. But if I can pronounce and know the definition of the kanji as I learn to write it, then I'd have 2k at the end. If I'm looking at this correctly.

-subtitles

Thanks cham that was a good idea. When I finish rtk October 1st and maybe a month of vocab, Nov. 1st I'll start watching some dramas that way. I'll do anime with eng subs and listen really actively for now.

-grammar and vocab

-Genki or something similar then tae kims guide then core 6000 ok got it. I was thinking after finishing rtk in October, then Nov and Dec CRAMMM vocab with only very very basic grammar on the side, then the final three months get a tutor to walk me through grammar and conversation while then switching to light vocab on my own.
Maybe I can go through Genki or another textbook and tae kims guide part time while I cram vocab. I'm assuming it's not good to skip genki or something like it and go right into tae kims guide. I am watching lets learn Japanese basic while rtk thats teaching me some sentence structure, like kore wa, sore wa, are wa /mo's. Hai arimasu, no arimasen, wa arimasu, ga arimasu ect. I guess I'll just decide after I see where it takes me, or just come back and bug you guys again.

-audio

Yeah good ideas Ill fill that extra hour with audio of some sort, maybe just simple conversations. May be a good compliment to the video lessons and a good foundation before starting genki or tae kim in a couple months. I'll think what I can do.

Sebastian Wrote:You're moving to Japan permanently, for a couple of months, etc? What are your priorities and how much time available for study will you have once you go there?

I'll be there permanently, my 6 hours of study will be cut to three once I get there thats including classroom. Maybe 4 hours I can squeeze in a couple days out of the week. I'll need to be able to read and write primarily, listening secondary but still important, speaking 3rd.
Ok I think I'll be able to shave off an hour if I'm good, or 45 minutes of my reviewing, it'll end up just being replaced with an exercise or two to remember the vocabulary words now though.
Oh and good idea I''ll try watching Aladdin in Japanese. I know that whole movie lol. Really good idea.
And also yeah I'll be flexible with my scheduling otherwise I'll go crazy but while still getting the same amount of hours in.


Thanks alot for the great advice I'll be putting these things into place. If you come across anything good to know please pass it on. Domo! ARIGATO!

@OP, if you don't like physical text books, keep in mind you can download almost everything. Although, probably not legally...

Quote:So what I decided was I would at least learn the meaning and pronunciation of the kanji I learn as I go instead of waiting to read the 2nd book. At least then I'd know 2k written kanji and hopefully remembered most pronunciations and meanings.
Sebastian suggested this too but I may not be able to learn one additional vocab word plus the kanji definition, which would actually be 4k words. But if I can pronounce and know the definition of the kanji as I learn to write it, then I'd have 2k at the end. If I'm looking at this correctly.

Don't do this. If you want to learn pronunciations, learn them in compounds. However, the problem with this is diminishing returns. There are at least 400-500 kanji where you can learn the meaning and the reading, but you will rarely see it in use, especially as a beginner. Use your time learning words you will actually use. I would honestly say the most important thing for you to do is learn grammar plus core6k. It is doable in 8 months of intensive study and will greatly, greatly help you in Japan.

@everyone else. I'm interested in the reasons why everyone is suggesting to finish RTK. In my opinion, getting familiar with the kanji is important, but learning how to write all 2000 is a big waste of time for someone with only 8 months to work with. I would say that your time would be much, much better spent on studying vocabulary (where all you need is to be able to recognize the kanji). Knowing how to write 亀 is much less helpful than being able to read 亀, 理想, 飛行機, etc.

What's everyone's reasons for recommending RTK over RTK Ultralight + extra vocab study? Why is doing RTK so important in these first eight months verse doing it after arriving in Japan?

[Zgarbas]

I think it's because when you're cramming like there's no tomorrow it's best to do it in a way that makes sure everything you're learning does not jumble up in an unrecognizable mess. Taking your time to do extra work with the details may be more cautious than recognizing it upon sight, since you actually learn to look out for every single line and reinforce that knowledge with writing.

I think you have all the opinions you need in order to make your own, Taylor, so I'm not really going to contribute. Just remember to be constant about it; especially with such a hardcore study plan, any break will take its toll on your pace.

I think it's near impossible to give you worthwhile advice without knowing what you are going to be doing once you get to Japan and why you are in such a mad rush. What will be your primary need for Japanese once you get here? That will have a big impact on where your focus should be.

partner55083777 Wrote:@OP, if you don't like physical text books, keep in mind you can download almost everything. Although, probably not legally...

Don't do this. If you want to learn pronunciations, learn them in compounds. However, the problem with this is diminishing returns. There are at least 400-500 kanji where you can learn the meaning and the reading, but you will rarely see it in use, especially as a beginner. Use your time learning words you will actually use. I would honestly say the most important thing for you to do is learn grammar plus core6k. It is doable in 8 months of intensive study and will greatly, greatly help you in Japan.

Right I realized my mistake here with learning pronunciations. And I see your point with the grammar thing.

After mulling over your opinion partner and everyone elses what do you think of this then.
Instead of 2 1/2 months of rtk primarily. I could just learn the radicals or primitives, start grammar, sentences, and vocab learning kanji in order of frequency as I go and use rtk primitives and keywords or create my own, as I am introduced to the kanji.
Is this what rtk light and ultra light do? Just teach primitives and keywords and a few kanji? And I'm assuming they are anki decks. And I'm assuming the learning kanji in order of frequence you were talking about comes from core6000 not genki.
I see your logic in suggesting this. After a certain amount of frames I hear you make up your own stories anyway. So may as well just learn and apply primitives and keywords as you learn kanji in their frequency. Then all of the focus can be on grammar, sentence structure, vocab, listening and reading and you can tackle kanji as it pops up. Ok yeah this makes sense to me a bit more now.

If I go the grammar route you suggest genki then tae kim, then core6000. Ok I'm assuming these are the best options for what they offer. I'll do a bit of research and read over this thread again for the other choices too. Mine sentences in genki throw them in anki. Go through tae kim guide plus do cloze-delete or at least recognition. I'm not exactly sure what those last two sentences I wrote mean but I'll figure it out. Mine sentences, cloze-delete, recognition. Ok gimme a day I'll learn what all that means.

I did get discouraged when I tried core2000 and couldn't break down the sentences but I guess that's why you suggested genki and tae kim first.

Ok I may make the switch to rtk light. Ill have to think over the benefits I will be losing out on and make a decision. Thank you for the suggestion.

and all thanks for the help and for caring about it.

and thanks zgarbas you can contribute though if you like but I do have to decide in the next day or so because times ticking. I agree, too much talking is precious hours being wasted ha.

edit
Its a long story all I'll be doing unless you want to read a couple more paragraphs. One of the main things is finishing this schooling program which I recently got accepted to reassign but now assumes I'll know basic Japanese which I believe I can get to in the time I have. Reading is my most immediate need. Then listening, speaking then writing.

Here's another thread very similar to your own:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid113117

Taylor Wrote:Instead of 2 1/2 months of rtk primarily. I could just learn the radicals or primitives, start grammar, sentences, and vocab learning kanji in order of frequency as I go and use rtk primitives and keywords or create my own, as I am introduced to the kanji.

Yes, this sounds good. But I would even say that you don't need to use RTK at all past RTK [ultra]light. Just memorize what the kanji look like. It's okay if you get them confused sometimes. It's usually easy to figure out what's being said. (For instance, I often get 緑 (みどり, green) and 縁 (ふち, rim) confused, but they are always used in different contexts, so I'm never actually confused when reading.)

Quote:Is this what rtk light and ultra light do? Just teach primitives and keywords and a few kanji? And I'm assuming they are anki decks.

Yes, you are basically right. However, I believe depending on what anki deck you use, some of the primitives aren't available in it. For instance, 寸 is both a radical/primitive and a kanji by itself (with a Heisig keyword). I think RTK Ultra light takes out some of the uncommon kanji (like 寸), even though it's commonly used a as a primitive/radical. You might need to go through and add these back in?

Quote:If I go the grammar route you suggest genki then tae kim, then core6000. Ok I'm assuming these are the best options for what they offer. I'll do a bit of research and read over this thread again for the other choices too. Mine sentences in genki throw them in anki. Go through tae kim guide plus do cloze-delete or at least recognition. I'm not exactly sure what those last two sentences I wrote mean but I'll figure it out. Mine sentences, cloze-delete, recognition. Ok gimme a day I'll learn what all that means.

Let me clarify some of my recommendations. I would say the most important thing for you to do is learn grammar and go through core6000. Learning grammar and vocab is hard when you're starting from the very beginning, which is why I recommend using a text book. It's simple. It basically holds your hand and takes you through the beginning stages. It's not necessarily interesting, but it's a really good way to get started.

You don't necessarily have to use Genki. I know some people like Minna no Nihongo. Other people recommend that Manga text book. I think it's called "Japanese the Manga Way" or something like that.

Also, since your time is limited, I would recommend not mining sentences yourself. Use a text book that has an Anki deck available for it. It will save you a lot of time and make your studying much easier.

As for the lingo, "cloze-delete" and "recognition" refer to two different types of cards to use in Anki.

"recognition" is something like this:

Code:

Front of Card:
私は学校に行きます

Back of Card:
I go to school.
私（わたし）：I, me
学校（がっこう）：school
行く（いく）：to go

Basically all you're doing is reading a sentence and recalling what it means. You don't have to produce any Japanese.

The opposite of "recognition" is "production". With production, you actually have to produce Japanese. Here's an example of a production card:

Code:

Front of Card:
cat

Back of Card:
猫（ねこ）

A "cloze-delete" card is a type of production card. It is basically a fill-in-the-black exercise. Here is an example card:

Code:

Front of Card:
私は[...school]に行きます。

Back of Card:
私は[学校]に行きます。

After thinking about it for a bit, I think you should focus on recognition, NOT production. Recognition is much, much easier and faster than doing production. Plus, since your goal is to learn how to read/understand Japanese, you don't need production yet. You will be getting a lot of production practice when you actually get to Japan.

Don't forget to checkout the wiki. I think it has these types of terms defined.

http://rtkwiki.koohii.com/wiki/Main_Page

Also, be sure to read through Anki's documentation. You will learn a lot of good things.

Quote:I did get discouraged when I tried core2000 and couldn't break down the sentences but I guess that's why you suggested genki and tae kim first.

Yes.

Oh yeah, one more thing. You might want to read through Khatz's site, All Japanese All the Time. He has a lot of wacky/zaney/dumb suggestions with regards to studying Japanese, but he also has a lot of good ideas when it comes to SRSing.

Zgarbas Wrote:I think it's because when you're cramming like there's no tomorrow it's best to do it in a way that makes sure everything you're learning does not jumble up in an unrecognizable mess. Taking your time to do extra work with the details may be more cautious than recognizing it upon sight, since you actually learn to look out for every single line and reinforce that knowledge with writing.

Interestingly, this was the reason I was recommending not doing all of RTK. My logic was that he could be studying extra vocab in the time he would have spent studying RTK. For instance, learning 6000 vocab words with a 70% retention is better than learning 4000 vocab words with a 90% retention.

However, you may be right. Going through all of RTK may help with remembering the vocab, thereby allowing him to actually learn more vocab than he could of without RTK.

For instance, I remember hearing a study about something similar to this. It was a study about Esperanto. The study basically proved that studying esperanto and then studying a foreign language allows you to advance faster in that foreign language than if you hadn't studied esperanto.

I think the study was done using two groups of highschool kids. One group of kids just studied Japanese for two years. The other group of kids studied Esperanto for 6 months and then Japanese for a year and a half. The result was that the kids who had studied esperanto were significantly further ahead in their Japanese studies than the other group, despite having studied Japanese for a much shorter amount of time.

It's within reason that using RTK verse not using RTK could have a similar affect.

However, in either case, I still think that there are at least 500 or so Kanji in RTK that should be skipped since they don't commonly appear in Japanese. Especially in material that beginners/intermediates are likely to come in contact with.

partner55083777 Wrote:For instance, I remember hearing a study about something similar to this. It was a study about Esperanto. The study basically proved that studying esperanto and then studying a foreign language allows you to advance faster in that foreign language than if you hadn't studied esperanto.

I think the study was done using two groups of highschool kids. One group of kids just studied Japanese for two years. The other group of kids studied Esperanto for 6 months and then Japanese for a year and a half. The result was that the kids who had studied esperanto were significantly further ahead in their Japanese studies than the other group, despite having studied Japanese for a much shorter amount of time.

I think that just proves learning languages makes you better at learning languages.

blackbrich Wrote:

partner55083777 Wrote:For instance, I remember hearing a study about something similar to this. It was a study about Esperanto....The result was that the kids who had studied esperanto were significantly further ahead in their Japanese studies than the other group, despite having studied Japanese for a much shorter amount of time.

I think that just proves learning languages makes you better at learning languages.

You're right. However, my point was that it's within reason that something similar could happen with RTK and vocab study. I was basically trying to say that Zgarbas' may be right in that Taylor should do RTK before studying grammar.

I personally don't agree with Zgarbas' point, but it's conceivable that it does work like he says.