CerpinTaxt Wrote:So are you suggesting reading two books at the same time. One for just pure exposure with reading and another for sentence mining?

Yeah, that's definitely a way you could do it. I don't think it matters too too much, except that for sentence mining I would try to concentrate on shoring up your weaknesses (like vocabulary on a specific topic) and for exposure I would try to concentrate on something you find fun, interesting, and fairly easy.

I find it a little bit difficult to keep my attention on a novel if I'm only reading at a sentence-mining pace (~2 pages a day) so lately I tend to sentence mine things like the Asahi editorial column 天声人語, short articles from a newspaper or current events magazine, or essays.

Has Lang-8 included audio recording options for submission and review? I remember there was talk of adding Rhino something or other at one time. Seems like a great way to practice speech and get honest feedback.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:There's no question that in order to be able to speak well, as in with good pronunciation, speed and comfort, you have to speak a lot. But in terms of what you're able to say - how you use the language - it's about how used you are to it, in my experience.

Because when you speak, you're not thinking about the technical aspects of language, you're using what you're used to, what you've acquired, what's there and quickly accessible. You can study the technical aspects and pass tests, and analyze the language as if it was a long decipherable code. But you generally can't use it on the fly when you speak. In that case it's what you've acquired through many hours of advanced - dare I say it - exposure.

On the other hand, I think there's a danger in setting up the usual koohii.com false duality -- studying technical aspects and analyzing the language alone will not allow you to speak Japanese, thus you must never study technical aspects or analyze the language.

I don't know if this was necessarily what you were saying, but IMO that is one of the most destructive ideas that shows up again and again on this forum -- Doing X by itself will not lead to fluent speech/reading/etc, therefore you must never do X at all. Or doing X has the potential to cause some problems, so never do X.

nadiatims Wrote:@merlin
Surely it makes sense to build up your speed/confidence/knowledge using content that is enjoyable and then you branch out as your level improves.

This reminds me of advice given to parents who want their children to become lifelong readers: Let them read whatever they want to, initially--comics, cereal boxes, whatever.

The point being that if something is too hard/boring to read, they are less likely to want to read it. And, if that is all that is available or offered to them, they'll probably give up.

On the other hand, if they can choose interesting materials, they are more likely to develop reading and language skills (and eventually apply them to a variety of materials as their interests expand.)

Oniichan Wrote:The point being that if something is too hard/boring to read, they are less likely to want to read it. And, if that is all that is available or offered to them, they'll probably give up.

On the other hand, if they can choose interesting materials, they are more likely to develop reading and language skills (and eventually apply them to a variety of materials as their interests expand.)

From my days working in a bookstore, I heard from several parents who loved Pokemon for the simple fact that it was what got their children interested in reading.

For a few of my friends kids, it was the Star Wars beginning reader level books that got the kids to start reading.

Definitely something to be said for finding materials you have an interest in.

yudantaiteki Wrote:On the other hand, I think there's a danger in setting up the usual koohii.com false duality -- studying technical aspects and analyzing the language alone will not allow you to speak Japanese, thus you must never study technical aspects or analyze the language.

I don't know if this was necessarily what you were saying, but IMO that is one of the most destructive ideas that shows up again and again on this forum -- Doing X by itself will not lead to fluent speech/reading/etc, therefore you must never do X at all. Or doing X has the potential to cause some problems, so never do X.

Yeah you're right, I don't mean to advocate for ignoring it. It's just that I think it's one of (if not the) most important points to get across to potential language learners. People think that if you want to learn a foreign language, formal study is it, it's what you do because hey, that's what we do in schools. And then people wonder why they can't speak.

alternatively, sometimes you think you're uninterested in something until you actually read and get through it...

or you might shoehorn yourself into certain genres or material because you think you like it, but in reality you only spend an hour a month on it.

heck sometimes I find stuff interesting in Japanese but not English, and vice versa. so yeah I'd agree with reading and learning from things you're initially not interested in.

kainzero Wrote:alternatively, sometimes you think you're uninterested in something until you actually read and get through it...

or you might shoehorn yourself into certain genres or material because you think you like it, but in reality you only spend an hour a month on it...

That reminds me of yet another point. "If you want to improve your reading ability, read." You can substitute the underlined parts with just about anything.

What I should have said is that the most important thing is to read every day, even if just a little. And, if you at least start with material that interests you, I think you'll be more likely to form a habit and ultimately read Japanese well.

merlin.codex Wrote:Let's say you speak with someone about some familiar topics like football, drinking, men, women, school, the weather, etc... and suddenly!

J: "Hey, do you know why red meat is bad for your health?"
NJ: "Ah, sorry, I lack the vocabulary for that topic cause I do extensive reading on novels."
J: "Oh. How about politics then?"
NJ: "No, not really my staff, you know. Still lacking that vocabulary."
J: "I see. What about your favorite alcohol? Do you know how to distill it?"
NJ: "What's 'distill'?"

Setting aside the fact that Japanese people rarely discuss politics, I don't see this objection as having much merit. It strikes me very similar to the mental block some people have that if a novel has 1550 kanji in it, that means you have to know 1550 kanji before you read word 1. Conversations are a good way to learn vocabulary as well. Why should it be the case that if you didn't learn words about red meat or health from reading, that you are unable to learn them while having a conversation?

"What's 'distill'?" seems like a perfectly appropriate response and a good way to learn new things.

It's also strange to assume that you wouldn't learn any vocabulary about food, politics, or alcohol by reading novels. Do you go out of your way to read things you don't care about in English just in order to have the requisite vocabulary/trivia?

I actually sometimes do in English -- I often force myself to read articles in The Economist that I'm not particularly interested in, and I do sometimes read books that wouldn't be my absolute top choice for interesting books because I think they're worth reading. But that's my native language. Even though I've gotten to a point where I can read Japanese fairly quickly, I still somehow feel that it's more tedious or tiring to read than English, and so I have very little patience for reading something in Japanese that I'm not interested in.

I've seen people claim this means I'll never be truly fluent in Japanese, but according to what I've seen people say on this forum, there are many reasons why I will never be fluent.

dtcamero Wrote:Everyone here has ignored the whale in the room... Speech.

Actually, the whale you just saw was covering the elephant. The elephant was this...

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:I had a Japanese girlfriend but she left after I threatened to kill her.

LOLWUT.

What did she do that was murder-worthy? Or rather, what did you do...

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:I had a Japanese girlfriend but she left after I threatened to kill her.

LOLWUT.

What did she do that was murder-worthy? Or rather, what did you do...

He has written some scary things earlier.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:I had a Japanese girlfriend but she left after I threatened to kill her.

LOLWUT.

What did she do that was murder-worthy? Or rather, what did you do...

He has written some scary things earlier.

Yeah I (and other people) have read his posts here-and-there in the past, and a few of them contains hints of situations in which violence occurs (not necessarily instigated by him) or is likely to occur, which was why I was pointing the finger at him, rather than his girlfriend.

I realize this is very off-topic of course, but it's certainly interesting.

[Zgarbas]

Guys, guys, let's get back on-topic, please.

I actually learned most of my "specialized" vocab in English by encountering it/needing it at one point and having to ask what everything is other 5 seconds. Supply and demand, you know? It's much easier to get yourself to learn a gazillion technological/political/economical/linguistic terms when you have a set reason for learning them, other than "I should know them in case someone wants to have a deep discussion about economy with me and I should be prepared". I still learn new words on a regular basis based solely on the fact that I never bothered even thinking about the topic before; it's no big, really. It's not like anyone expects you to be a living dictionary =/.

I think sticking to whatever OP likes and normally reads in his native tongue is more important than going through completely uninteresting material for the sake of learning terms he might not even know/fully grasp/ever talk about in his native tongue.

Zgarbas Wrote:It's not like anyone expects you to be a living dictionary =/.

I think a good vocabulary is defo part of being advanced?

@twomorecharacters what about my many helpful posts?

[Zgarbas]

Having a good vocabulary is not equal to being a living dictionary. There's a few dozen thousands words between them.
(on-topic, please!)

I wonder if being "advanced" in Japanese is more important than being "advanced" in English? Simply because the people you'll be communicating with are almost exclusively natives, unlike with English when the only time I might feel inferior in my communication skills is when I'm talking with a native- while being more or less superior to anyone that speaks English as their second language. It really gives me less of an incentive to become better at English when I usually end up simplifying my speech to be better understood in daily life as-is...

Quote:I actually learned most of my "specialized" vocab in English by encountering it/needing it at one point and having to ask what everything is other 5 seconds. Supply and demand, you know? It's much easier to get yourself to learn a gazillion technological/political/economical/linguistic terms when you have a set reason for learning them, other than "I should know them in case someone wants to have a deep discussion about economy with me and I should be prepared".

Exactly.

I don't think there is any agreement about what advanced constitutes in this thread.

It seems like some people are taking it to be an almost-native level of vocabulary across all common topics.

Others are taking it to be an almost-native vocabulary in what you are interested it, and perhaps an improved ability to speak and understand in that field but not outside of it.

Probably there are some other definitions floating around.

I think it would be helpful if people could state what they think advanced means and then make suggestions about how to get there from intermediate. Arguing past one another because you disagree over a semantic issue is usually pretty pointless.


My Definition: "being able to work comfortably with native-level materials."

My methos for moving from intermediate to advanced is just to read and watch TV extensively and keep up on my Anki reps. I can't really promote it though, since I'm not sure how well it is working. I find it enjoyable, and I'm pretty sure my skills are not slipping backwards, so it works for me to that extent. :-)

Just IMHO,

CJ

I do the Japanese tv(talk variety shows and gooD dramas and movies), Japanese Internet and Japanese books. And it's because I enjoy it. I don't do boring news like politics because I don't care. I don't see the point of treating Japanese as special by forcing yourself to watch or listen or read stuff u don't care about in English in Japanese.

For example the only news I read about in japanese is the 2-ch stuff about the bullying in ootushi town since it's such a tragedy and lots of people in japan are pissed off about it including debu fujin (her blog entry was good and i hate japanese blogs since they're for the most part poorly written and short at least for my preferences) and there has been interesting development like when fuji tv aired some written text with names not completely blacked out which lead to everyone finding out about the perpetrators' name and what class they were in.

The thing with talk variety shows is after a while there isn't much to learn because once u get everyday Japanese down its the same thing over and over again. But sometimes I do learn rare/less common but still useful or interesting words from talk variety shows. Ive come across and learned words from reading books that I never would've come across with just talk variety shows. Also to make the most out of watching talking variety shows I make mcd cards to help remember the word or the grammar or the way hey say it.

I think going to advanced just means do whatever the hell u want to do Japanese because u enjoy it. And if what I enjoy gets too easy and there isn't much to learn from anywhere I suggedt making mcd cards and reading books or Internet because u definitely will come across words or grammar u don't know from those two. The key point is books or Internet stuff u enjoy reading.

What if we look at the CEFR?

C1: Effective Operational Proficiency or advanced
Can understand a wide range of demanding, longer texts, and recognise implicit meaning.
Can express him/herself fluently and spontaneously without much obvious searching for expressions.
Can use language flexibly and effectively for social, academic and professional purposes.
Can produce clear, well-structured, detailed text on complex subjects, showing controlled use of organisational patterns, connectors and cohesive devices.

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:@twomorecharacters what about my many helpful posts?

They're certainly contributions, sorry for being rude.

After Core6000 or some similar resource, I think the rest of the route of learning Japanese could be stated quite comprehensively as "Read and listen to native materials, speak and write until fluent". But then there wouldn't be much discussion on the boards I suppose.

Honestly though, the sooner you just start making Japanese an everyday part of your life, without treating it as study or analysing your ability and progress at every step on forums like this, the better. Just read the books you want to read, watch the TV shows you want to watch, make the kinds of friends you want to be friends with (often not the ones looking for language exchange or with any interest in your nationality), post on the message boards you want to post on, and so on. Just enjoy yourself and you'll be fluent before you know it. Sure it'll be hard at first, but the difficulties will quickly give way.

cjon256 Wrote:I don't think there is any agreement about what advanced constitutes in this thread.

Well, there is no set definition. I've come up with the following definition for reading, which I think makes significant divisions in progress that aren't just number of kanji or whatever.

Basically to test your proficiency level, take a native material that you're interested in (that you haven't read in a translation) and try to read some of it. Do it once with no dictionaries or reference works. Then do it again with whatever reference works you want except for a translation. You can't get help from actual people, though.

Beginners are basically unable to understand anything without the reference works -- maybe some words and sentences here or there, but even the main general points are opaque. With reference works they can do a little better, but their lack of grammatical knowledge and vocabulary holes mean that even with reference works they really can't even get the main points of what they're reading, or it takes so long that it becomes tedious and boring.

Intermediates(?) still can't do all that well with no reference works, but with reference works they're basically able to understand the main points of the whole thing. There are expressions and whole sentences that they can't get even with the works, though, and it's clear to them that they're not getting the whole picture.

Advancers(?) are able to get the main points reading through with no works, although there will be gaps in their knowledge that they can't figure out just from context. With reference works, they're able to get near-perfect understanding -- there may be some occasional places where the reference works fail, but the person can usually figure out the general idea of what they're missing.

I guess you reach a level above this when you can read what you want with no reference works and have very few places where you can't figure things out through context.

I think that Beginners should focus on grammar (by "focus on grammar" I don't necessarily mean reading English explanations, although I think that's more helpful than most do.) Intermediate readers need to work on their vocab more.