Hello there,

Im new to this forum, in fact this is my first post.

I have been reading through some topics here, and have come to the conclusion that i want to do the RTK. My concern is that im taking japanese classes at the current moment, we are using the genki books and every week i have to learn around 16 new kanji's. I have completed Genki 1, and are in the beginning of Genki 2 - it's an intensive course and we move fast! I already know around 300 kanji's, meaning and reading - the way i studied them was in most cases without use of memonics, i wrote them many times, and used anki for reviewing.

I dont know when to start RTK, because in the beginning of his book he states that one should not use it with siderunning kanji study. Should i slowly start now, or should i wait untill im done with genki 2 and then concentrate on RTK only?

What's the opinion on this? Please help

Hey kurisucyan, and welcome to the forum.
On the contrary, you should start as soon as you can to see how the method works: you see, Heisig breaks down kanji into smaller units -- which are not unlike radicals -- which he calls primitives. So my point is you need to go as far as possible in the book (or at least to mark the kanji you'll meet in genki and see where they are in Heisig) , so you can learn how to break down the kanji you'll encounter in Genki. When you'll be used to the method, you'll be able to learn 16 kanji in about an hour and a half.
Rote learning is a waste of time, start Heisig as soon as you can, it will really make a difference in your Japanese class: you'll have much more time to learn/practice real Japanese.
Good luck on the way!

I agree with Eratik. Get right in there and start as soon as possible with RTK! 16 kanji should not take a week. That's definitely doable in 1 day.

I would say keep your RTK study and your classroom study separate, though. Take the method from RTK and apply that wherever it's helpful (imaginative memory for remembering stuff), but don't start throwing your classroom materials into your RTK study. Keep it simple. That's probably the easiest way to learn the meaning and writing of the 2000+ general use (常用漢字) kanji as quickly as possible. In conjunction with an SRS like Anki or mnemosyne, of course.

I'm sure you'll get much more and better advice from other members of the forum, so get ready!

^ Been doing something like this

Only at ~400 in RTK
but I know quite a few of the readings and compounds those kanji turn up in,
so its definitely not a waste of time

also for some people like myself the imaginative memory thing just doesn't work
so going slow and doing it more in context may help

different strokes for different folks ^_^

I'm in classes while doing RTK. I do keep them seperate but replace the textbook keyword with Heisig's keyword. It's been said but yeah you should have started the day before yesterday. It will be fun but try to refrain from telling your friends in class too much about it at first because some people will try to test you out instantly which won't work. If they really are interested in learning Kanji they will find the method when it's right for them.

Yeah, start RtK right away, but don't advertise the fact that you're doing it. You'll just invite a lot of skeptics who'll call it ineffective, useless, and all this other stuff -- despite them not being much better than you anyway.

Also, since you're doing it in class, I'd probably suggest adding the reading to the kanji as one of the primitives (look up the movie method -> it's a similar idea). Adding 1 primitive shouldn't be too hard, and it'll help you know the words you're supposed to be learning in class.

Yes, keep them separate, but don't ignore it when characters you know from RtK show up in class -> that's a good thing! Recognize it, see how it fits in the word, and love it!

I did this through my intensive summer course where we went through An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese. My regret was that I hadn't started sooner.

I don't see why any method would not teach you the radicals first anyway. That's the first things you should be able to memorize and then chunking simiar kanji together to help memorization. This way you can recognize kanji because you're faimiliar with the radicals.

What I'd change though is instead of using the Heisig's keywords which tend to embed English into your memory of the kanji especially if you're SRSing the keywords, use a kunyomi reading of a kanji and/or a simplistic picture of the meaning of the kanji. For example, for Castle use Jyou and a simple picture of a castle, or just a castle. The actual drawn go of the castle wil help secure the memory of the kanji to your brain. Then you can link it to a story. I just wouldn't count on trying to forget the English keyword after doing RTK.

Some of of course wil be hard to draw due toan abstract meaning, but either use a series of pictures or try your best to make it into a drawing. You might end up being a really great pictonary player. ;D

@kurisucyan:
Just wanted to say what KMDES says about changing Heisig's method from imaginative memory to learn with pictures (like kanji damage?) is a minority vote, and most of us don't feel there is a need to change anything*.

Although, some say you can add onyomi to your mnemonics because it's the most frequent reading (cf RTK2 pure group) and it saves time for later on (when you'll have to learn the readings)(Apologies in advance if I've completly mixed up the reading thing).

*:For example, remaining in an i+1 perspective, Heisig keywords aim at signifieds (so it's only English in an indirect way) so you only have to learn/produce the signifier-kanji. So not using the keywords but Japanese puts you in a i+2 situation and removes the bridge of the signified. If you want to replace that bridge with a picture, fine, but then it's another method. It's okay to discuss methods, but simply altering Heisig just to recommend your stuff can be perceived as rude or stubborn by some members (because there is a warning about that kind of behaviour in a sticky somewhere). Sorry if I seem rude, but I've been witnessing at least 3 highjacks, and it's kind of annoying since you never have any acquisition argument to uphold your posts. The only thing you say about "embedding English" only shows it seems you haven't done the method yourself, because it doesn't work that way at all (at least for me).

I'm going to chime in with the majority opinion and say by all means start RTK - it's just so much more effective. When I studied Japanese in school, we did not learn radicals or anything like that. I think it was just the same as you: "Today's Monday, here are the 5 kanji for the day. Tomorrow you'll get the next 5." I got up to about 500 that way, with lots of rote memorizing, including readings. The bright spot was when I hit around 200 or so and I saw for myself that certain elements were repeating - it was easier to pick up new kanji because of the common elements. Feeling really good, I went to a Japanese friend of mine and said: "Hey, isn't this neat, this bit means this, and so on." To which he replied: "Yeah, we learned it that way in school." At that point, I just looked at him and wondered why nobody was teaching us that way! Well, RTK is that way, only even better.

One other neat thing that's been happening to me this time around - and I imagine it will happen to you, too - is when I see some of the kanji that stuck best, I already know how to read them in Japanese.

Finally...it's not like studying more is gonna hurt your abilities!

I've done the RTK twice. Well, 2.5 times technicaly. I also SRSed for about a year of it. (Through Anki) My acquistion argument is how children learn languages and studies from books on the brain and memories. If you have millions of people learning a language fluently before they reach the age of 7, then we probably should take a closer look at that method. Yet with the basic approach we see people having problems with something a child can easily grasp. I just think maybe we should look into other possible approaches instead just unquestioningly follow one specific plan to a tee.

Of course I am gonna seem rude even though I mean well. Anybody that even insinuates that some other person/method could possibly be wrong would be considered rude, but of course that's just something that has to be dealt with if possible change is to occur.

Of course, you're right. It doesn't matter if any variations of systems I suggest could help people learn as probably no ones gonna listen. If you're stuck in your way, you're stuck in your way, no amount of arguing or proof will change a person's mind once it's set. It's just strange to see people who want to learn a different language not consider slight variations on a method let alone factors like exercise, stress levels, sleep, diet, behavior conditioning and dopamine levels. If you wanna really learn something, why not take every advantage you can?

Of course saying this stuff is probably gonna get me banned. :/

We disagree with you. No need to be insulting, or portray yourself as being persecuted. I don't feel "stuck in my way", and no one's threatening you.

Japanese children at the age of 7 generally don't know many characters at all, as far as I know, so I don't see what your point is.

KMDES Wrote:My acquistion argument is how children learn languages and studies from books on the brain and memories. If you have millions of people learning a language fluently before they reach the age of 7, then we probably should take a closer look at that method.

Just like some clarification here. You're referring to spoken language... right? Surely you don't mean that millions of 7 year olds are running around reading and writing fluently with over 2000 kanji under their belt.

If the spoken language was all we were going for, this forum probably wouldn't exist. It's easy enough to acquire the spoken component of any language (It's called immersion. Of course you'd be fluent in a language if that's all you used to communicate with for 7 years). It's in the written language that most of us, as westerns, run into a bit of a hitch when we have to wrap our heads around this pictographic writing system that at first glance seems much more complex than our own 26 or so letter alphabet (depending on your language).

The way that children in Japan learn kanji is ineffecient. They are taking 12 years to learn 2000 kanji. As adults, we don't have/want to spend 12 years learning 2000 kanji. We want to maintain our status as adults and not be treated like children because we're illiterate. Thus, RTK was created and systematized so that we, as adults, can take advantage of our higher mental faculties and learn faster and more efficiently than Japanese children.

But yes, don't stick to one strict method as if that's the gospel doctrine and you'll be hanged if you change it. Do add variations to methods so that they are individual to you because we're all different and education is not one size fits all. Some pants are better with elastic... that's all I'm saying. But, if you chop off the bottom half, they're no longer pants... now you're wearing shorts. Totally different.

KMDES Wrote:Of course, you're right. It doesn't matter if any variations of systems I suggest could help people learn as probably no ones gonna listen. If you're stuck in your way, you're stuck in your way, no amount of arguing or proof will change a person's mind once it's set. It's just strange to see people who want to learn a different language not consider slight variations on a method let alone factors like exercise, stress levels, sleep, diet, behavior conditioning and dopamine levels. If you wanna really learn something, why not take every advantage you can?

Of course saying this stuff is probably gonna get me banned. :/

Disagreeing with us won't get you banned. In fact, your idea of a picture for the kanji instead of an english keyword is something we've already toyed with We love new ideas here, as long as they have some merit behind them.

What is more likely to get you banned is having an attitude problem about it. If you have good arguments for what you say, excellent! Everyone wins! On the other hand, if you're kind of a dick about the whole ordeal -- you're probably going to ruffle a few feathers.

Just a general statement -- so just make sure you keep your discussions civil and you'll be fine.

chill peeps
hit the bong or something

I think the pictures could work too
ill check that thread asriel, thanks

@KMDES:
Thank you for the clarification. So you must have heaps of compound vocab... Haven't the keywords faded by now? I mean, I'm still a beginner but already 7% of my deck is kunyomi already (sorry guys, they're easier to remember). Why didn't you do RTK with Japanese keywords the second time around? Maybe RTK embeded English in your case. After all, that's possible... But I don't think this phenomenon to be general. Keywords are known to fade under real material exposure.

I was merely pointing out your formulation. It's okay to say "if I had to do it again, I'd use Japanese and pictures" and that would be another method, so that just might be the most efficient way for some people to learn kanji (RTK is far from universal), so that's fine. But to suggest to change Heisig is nonsense because if you change it it's not Heisig anymore. That was all I was saying.

Hey thanks for all your thoughts on this, ive already started RTK and just wish i started sooner

Right now im short on time, i havn't read all of the wisdom above yet. But im gonna do it tomorrow! Thanks again.

Once again thank you for your advice, i see there are different opinions on the use of the book. As for the studying of RTK1 im sticking to the english keywords, and try to follow the original intension of Heisig. This leads to my next question, why isn't RTK2 that popular?

I prefer to study Kanji readings in full native sentences. That way we learn Readings / Vocab / and pieces of grammar all from native sources. It's the AJATT method of learning.

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:I prefer to study Kanji readings in full native sentences. That way we learn Readings / Vocab / and pieces of grammar all from native sources. It's the AJATT method of learning.

context is the way to go in the beginning and pretty much always

I would use Japanese keywords for the Kanji you already know, but stick with Heisig's keywords for the rest until you know a word that uses that Kanji. I have been doing the Japanese keyword conversion for a while now.

brianobush Wrote:I would use Japanese keywords for the Kanji you already know, but stick with Heisig's keywords for the rest until you know a word that uses that Kanji. I have been doing the Japanese keyword conversion for a while now.

I have a production deck for just this exact thing(tests japanese words,sentences,cloze deletion,etc). I feel switching the keywords now to all Japanese will just bother my memory. Although it wouldn't hurt, it's just time consuming.