I guess this best fits in the off-topic forum, but who knows.

My question here is essentially: what next?

Now that I've taken my Japanese to an acceptable level for my own goals, I want to tackle something else. I love languages, so why not another one. Plus, after all the time it took to figure out how to properly study that was an effective method for myself, it should take way less time, I imagine? Plus, since in Japanese I can now pick up a book and read leisurely, turn on a show and understand it all, and conduct business in Japanese, I think it's really time to broaden my study.

So, who here can help me pick a new language?

My draw towards Chinese is kanji. I'll probably take a run through RTH if I do do it, just because I love them and it will be basically a refresher. The other draw is, well... it's cool. I don't know why, but to me I feel that stringing together all those single syllable characters and forming thoughts is a pretty neat thing.

My draw to Korean is Korea's eerily similarities to Japan and Korean's similarities to Japanese. Lots of similar vocabulary, easy writing system (sat down for 3 hours and know it now), but I really, really want to read the Korean comic "Redmoon." I also have a pretty close Korean friend I can practice with, who speaks Japanese better than some native friends of mine (to note: I don't have a close Chinese friend).

That said, I'd like to visit China more than Korea. On top of that, Chinese is definitely the better language for business.

However, the ultimate deciding factor for me, I think, will be media. Right now, I enjoy listening to Japanese hip-hop, watching dramas, reading books and playing games in Japanese. I also like anime, but I basically only watch Gintama, as most other anime right now sickens me with its ridiculous dialogue and character movements (not to mention lack of plot). When it comes to Chinese and Korean, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I want to do in either of them, besides go there and mingle with the locals. The only thing I really want to do is read that Korean comic, which I own all of, but worse comes to worse, my Korean friend said he'd translate it all to Japanese for me.

So, what do I do? Or, do I give up on East Asia and move over to Europe? I still have bad memories of Italian from high school, but I wouldn't mind French or German.

I think this had become quite a long post, so I'll end it here and wait for more discussion to start.

Yay, someone I actually help.

Chinese)

Pronunciation: Chinese pronunciation is a little more tricky than Japanese but for me it was a godsend. I loved the fact that each character is one syllable -- believe me this goes a long way with reading words and helped me speak at a much faster rate then I did with Japanese. Also, sentences contain much less syllables. Tones are hard for the first month, but no-one EVER mentions the positive side of tones. After my first month I was hearing words on the spot with little difficulty because words are always pronounced the same way (or similar) so this really helped my listening comprehension.

Writing) I don't recommend Bopomofo, it's never used and all material for learners are in Pinyin. Yes, obviously you have to learn a lot of characters but not as much as you would think to understand song lyrics or emails/chat. Characters are used a LOT more than Japanese so for each kanji/hanzi you can get like 6 words at least. Spacing does annoy me with Chinese -- it's harder than Japanese since Japanese has at least three writing systems. Chinese is a bit trickier in that way.

Vocabulary) You will get a lot of free words via Japanese. But for me it sometimes confused me how some combinations worked. (上学 = go to school XD) It seems like there are less words in Chinese -- but take this with a grain of salt.

Grammar) Chinese grammar is really easy. In fact, it is studied rather laissez faire by everyone I know. It's similar to English without the conjugations and articles.

Enjoyment) Mandarin (Taiwanese dialect) is my favorite language in the world. I love the monosyllabic, soft sounds. I love the writing system, although a few characters do look better in Japanese kanji. Taiwan has a LOT of great artists and reading material. You won't be able to find very many games sadly since Taiwanese people usually import Japanese games and Mainland China is...well you know. Chinese culture is much easier for a foreigner I think. Chinese people do not give you 上手 every three seconds and they are frank, but helpful. (In ratio, I like Taiwanese twice as much as Japanese and Korean but that's me.)

Korean)

Writing) Korea has a pretty damn good writing system. It's clever and easy. A friend taught me how to read during a Japanese class (one hour) and I was writing in Korean-English with her all week. You won't NEED hanja-kanji but it helps a lot to know them and they are helpful.

Pronunciation) Korean pronunciation is the hardest out of all the languages I know (except probably English but that is my native language. XD) Word's sound change depending on the words around them and this throws me off a LOT. There is a lot of similar words and there is no help most the time to help you discern them.

Grammar) Harder than Japanese but a LOT like it. In Japanese there is は and が. In Korean this is split farther into 은, 는, 가, and 이 depending on wether the word ends in consonant or vowel. There are more politeness tones too.

Vocabulary) Korean is a lot like Japanese but I found this the most difficult to pick up words. It's confusing and there is few texts and resources available.

Enjoyment) Korean is fun and I like a lot of my friends and music but it's a mine-zone. The music is literally 99% pop dance groups -- usually girly boys or girls who can't sing (no offense). It's really hard for guys to survive. I think I prefer the language over Japanese but there is SO much you can do with Korean that you can't do with Korean.


There is a lot more resources for Chinese than Korean and honestly it's a lot more fun. Plus, you have a lot of kanji and kanji compounds under your belt. It's your decision but this was my understanding.

Helpful post, thanks!

The most interesting topic you brought up for me was the Taiwanese dialect. When I tried Mandarin way back when in college (I also tried Korean, so I know the basics of both), my teacher was Taiwanese. So we always used traditional hanzi. Is the the only difference? What other differences arise in Taiwanese compared to "mainland" Mandarin? I would love to learn Taiwanese, but am also interested in Beijing and other mainland areas, so will speaking with a Taiwanese dialect hinder my relations there? Or is it not even noticeable?

If I were to learn Chinese, more specifically the Taiwanese Mandarin dialect, are there any specific sources I would need to get the Taiwanese feel?

And finally, would just normal Mandarin be better for business?

As for your points on Korean... they made me realize while I stopped studying it after my one class ended. I got an A in my class, and thought the language was easy since I had a good grasp on Japanese at the time, but at the same time I looked to the road ahead: Another language of equally complex grammar, but this language has even more politeness levels and no kanji at all.

It was really hard for me to read without kanji.

This thread has some discussion about Taiwanese vs. Mandarin:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7257

I don't know Chinese but this is something I heard concerning Simplified vs Traditional characters from some Chinese friends, and thought it might be worth adding since Ryuujin sort of mentioned it. Learn Traditional characters (What HK and TW use them I believe) first, you can figure out many of the simplified characters from Traditional, but I've heard its very hard to figure out Traditional characters from simplified.

OK, Everyone stop for a second!

http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/mand...rences.php

This is all you need to get a grasp between the differences between Mandarin and Taiwanese Mandarin. -- It's not large it's like British and American English.

Note that "Taiwanese dialect", "Taiwanese language" or simply "Taiwanese" usually refer to Taiwanese Hokkien/Taiwanese Southern Min, a language that is about as different from Mandarin as Cantonese, if not more so. Mandarin as spoken/written on Taiwan is more commonly referred to as "Taiwanese Mandarin" or "Taiwanese variety of Mandarin". As gyuujuice pointed out, its differences from standard PRC Mandarin are not that great, and referring to it as a dialect is not very accurate, since the majority of Taiwan's population does not speak it as a first language.

Right, so basically:


Mandarin is a completely different language from Cantonese. Mandarin is spoken in Taiwan which is referred to Taiwanese Mandarin. Taiwanese is a different language and despite its name it's a small minority language which is not nearly as common as Mandarin. Wether you study Simplified or Traditional doesn't matter really. I recommend Traditional, but usually people can read the other script but only write one.

Hey Ryuujin.
From what you're saying, you should do Mandarin, but if you interested in quickness, you should go for Korean. Even without kanji, hangul is okay when you get the hang of it. Personally, I'm in love with Mongolia, so I plan to skip Korean and tackle Mongolian (another altaic language) straight after I pass JLPT1.

Also, you can guess a lot of simplified forms of hanzi from what you know, so I wouldn't be afraid of Mandarin, which I think is the best choice business-wise.
Good luck in your study!

gyuujuice Wrote:Taiwanese is a different language and despite its name it's a small minority language which is not nearly as common as Mandarin.

Are you talking about the whole of Greater China or just Taiwan? If it's the latter, then Taiwanese is not a minority language at all, it is spoken as a first language by about 70% of the population. Of course, nearly 100% of the population also speaks Mandarin either as a second or a first language, but that does not automatically make all other languages spoken on Taiwan "small minority languages".

Off topic, but if anyone is interested in the linguistic situation on Taiwan, I recommend reading this rather lengthy, but very informative article. It was published back in 2003, so it may be a little outdated, and some of the author's conclusions are very arguable, but the background of Taiwan's linguistic question is outlined very well.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:As for your points on Korean... they made me realize while I stopped studying it after my one class ended. I got an A in my class, and thought the language was easy since I had a good grasp on Japanese at the time, but at the same time I looked to the road ahead: Another language of equally complex grammar, but this language has even more politeness levels and no kanji at all.

It was really hard for me to read without kanji.

This. Korean made me realize that Chinese characters are a godsend. You'll get used to it though, you just have to read.. a lot.

I think that before deciding on learning a language you should

1) search for languages that you have any slightest interest in
-> 2) explore their culture a lot
3) Find the languages which you think are the most useful and interesting to you

( My study of Japanese began unintentionally and unconsciously as a consequence of:

*having visited lots of very different places in China in a 3 week period.
*Watching A LOT of anime
*Watching a lot of Asian films (mainly Korean and Japanese) and discussing them and Ghibli with my classmate almost everyday.
* Reading novels of Murakami, Kawabata, Mishima, Yoshimoto in English (about 20 books in total)
* Having done Judo since 6 years old to 12 years old.)

4)Start exploring the sounds of the languages (films), and watch their media and read books by authors of those countries, and about those countries.

See how well the language/country will fit with your interests and goals and your future life.

5) if you have a chance, visit those chosen interesting countries. Just in case...you don't wanna end up spending 2 years + on learning a language of a country you don't want to spend time in. And by visiting you'll get a truer picture of the situation in those countries also. ( This should help you to get rid of believing the information influenced by mass media and rumours)

6)If after a lot of research you still have, lets say 2 languages you want to learn, then find out which language has better native material online and learning resources.

Choose the language you will be learning. It just might happen that the language you abandon will have more and better resources in those 2+ years than right now.

A good example of this would be Japanese ... right now it's deff one of the best Asian languages to learn thanks to AJATT, anki decks, RTK, this community & website.

And it seems that Mandarin is starting to get moving in this scene of autodidacts of ours.
RTH site coming up, Khatz taking up the language (ajatt articles, resources)...

7) if you still can't decide
Start learning them...and abandoneverything in the early beginner stages, except the one language you have decided that you will be learning.


This whole process might be not the fastest way of starting a language...might take like 2 months, but in my opinion you will definitely be learning the language you'll get the most enjoyment and use of

@gyuujuice: Just pure interest, what's the "huge" difference in simplified and traditional Hanzis (they are called like that, right? the chinese kanjis )? As far as I know, or what I've read, Mandarin is the most spoken language in the world and spoken in whole China, except that red marked cantonese district around Hongkong (?). Could you read both scripts? Which is more commonly used nowadays in China (or Taiwan)?
Ha, my neighbours are speaking Cantonese here XD

Torikun,

Hanzi is the Chinese word for Kanji, yes.

Most of the time it's just the way the radical looks. 鱼VS魚 Sometimes it's just contracted, but coming from a Japanese background it isn't that hard to get used to.

When reading Chinese I sometimes look and say, "Oh hey it's from Hongkong!". The written forms of Mandarin and Cantonese are extremely similar. The major difference is the traditional VS simplified and maybe a few words are different but I can read a lot of things from HongKong no problem.

As for spoken, everyone in Hongkong can speak Mandarin because it's pretty much taught in school and necessary for business. Few people in Taiwan and (Mainland) China can speak it. So if you want to reach more people Mandarin is the way to go.



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"Are you talking about the whole of Greater China or just Taiwan? If it's the latter, then Taiwanese is not a minority language at all, it is spoken as a first language by about 70% of the population. Of course, nearly 100% of the population also speaks Mandarin either as a second or a first language, but that does not automatically make all other languages spoken on Taiwan "small minority languages"."

I did exaggerate my point, sorry. Right, what I meant to say is that Mandarin is spoken mainly in Taiwan, though in terms of how people treat it, many people consider Taiwanese a language you speak at home but don't use all that much when going out. At least that's what I get when I ask them. "Oh, no one uses it -- it's useless we only speak it at home". I know what they are saying is also exaggerated but I think they feel it's a family/cultural language and it seemed to me that they didn't want me to learn it for some other reason. *shrugs* I don't think I am more right but this has been my experience with Taiwanese people here in America.

gyuujuice Wrote:I did exaggerate my point, sorry. Right, what I meant to say is that Mandarin is spoken mainly in Taiwan, though in terms of how people treat it, many people consider Taiwanese a language you speak at home but don't use all that much when going out. At least that's what I get when I ask them. "Oh, no one uses it -- it's useless we only speak it at home". I know what they are saying is also exaggerated but I think they feel it's a family/cultural language and it seemed to me that they didn't want me to learn it for some other reason. *shrugs* I don't think I am more right but this has been my experience with Taiwanese people here in America.

True, the article I linked to does mention that while some Taiwanese people are genuinely proud of their native language, quite a lot of them consider it inferior to Mandarin. I find it kinda sad that the Chinese embraced the Western misconception of Chinese as a single language and raised it to the level of government propaganda, resulting in the marginalization of non-standard "dialects".

gyuujuice Wrote:As for spoken, everyone in Hongkong can speak Mandarin because it's pretty much taught in school and necessary for business. Few people in Taiwan and (Mainland) China can speak it.

Um, I think at least one of these two sentences came out wrong...

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.

I agree with pretty much everything in this thread. I think I really need to analyze and test out both languages.

Well, I guess I already did test them out. When I was in college, I took one semester of Chinese and one semester of Korean. Chinese I did awful in, but that was because I didn't put much time into it, as I was still more into Japanese. Korean I did very well in, but that was only because I knew a lot of Japanese so the grammar was like a no-brainer.

I think if it were too come down to it, Korean would be the language I would use more. I have multiple Korean friends willing to help me, and 0 Chinese friends (well, Mandarin speaking ones). But there is still something about Chinese that calls out to me. I don't know if it is how cool and mystical the word "Chinese" looks to me as a westerner, or whether if I feel some draw to wanting to live in a really cool looking city like Beijing or Hong Kong, but something about it still draws me in.

Naturally, if we are talking hip-hop, Korea wins hands down. Tiger JK + MC Sniper? China doesn't stand a chance.

"As for spoken, everyone in Hongkong can speak Mandarin because it's pretty much taught in school and necessary for business. Few people in Taiwan and (Mainland) China can speak it."

I meant:

As for spoken, everyone in Hongkong can speak Mandarin because it's pretty much taught in school and necessary for business. Much fewer people in Taiwan and (Mainland) China can speak Cantonese however.


Ryuujin, choose the language you think you will have more fun it. Wether it be your music tastes or friends.

I'm studying all three and it's pretty crazy and fun. XD

gyuujuice Wrote:"As for spoken, everyone in Hongkong can speak Mandarin because it's pretty much taught in school and necessary for business. Few people in Taiwan and (Mainland) China can speak it."

I meant:

As for spoken, everyone in Hongkong can speak Mandarin because it's pretty much taught in school and necessary for business. Much fewer people in Taiwan and (Mainland) China can speak Cantonese however.


Ryuujin, choose the language you think you will have more fun it. Wether it be your music tastes or friends.

I'm studying all three and it's pretty crazy and fun. XD

have to agree, choose the one you like/will have more fun in.

Naturally the one I have most fun in is Japanese ;-)

The problem really comes that I don't know what will be more fun. Maybe I'll take a page out ofgyuujuice's book and learn Chinese and Korean at the same time... either taking them both far or giving one up because I don't like it.

Now the problem becomes finding the free time...

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Naturally the one I have most fun in is Japanese ;-)

The problem really comes that I don't know what will be more fun. Maybe I'll take a page out ofgyuujuice's book and learn Chinese and Korean at the same time... either taking them both far or giving one up because I don't like it.

Now the problem becomes finding the free time...

I've found that there is never enough time, just do what you can now!

@gyuujuice and others.. As we have Chinese history in history right now and the teacher, knowing i'm learning japanese, asked me if there is something like polite chinese expressions (honorific/humble?), I naturally agreed (duh, I should not have done this without knowing a word chinese actually, right? Ok, i will never do it again :x). Wanted to ask if there is something like that, and if you will give me some examples

"I've found that there is never enough time, just do what you can now!"

Words of Wisdom.


"@gyuujuice and others.. As we have Chinese history in history right now and the teacher, knowing i'm learning japanese, asked me if there is something like polite chinese expressions (honorific/humble?), I naturally agreed (duh, I should not have done this without knowing a word chinese actually, right? Ok, i will never do it again :x). Wanted to ask if there is something like that, and if you will give me some examples "

Um.... yeah. So there are set words which are polite/humble but there are no verbal tenses or anything with "polite forms" with verbs adjectives or verbs. (する／します/いたします). Chinese is a very vocabulary focused language.

你 = you
您 = you (humble)

聽 ＝ listen(s) [neutral]

I hoped that helped

This might sound good for you! You can also compare the similarity between some languages.

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/l...index.html

Simple. Whomever makes the better video games is who you go with. ;D

vix86 Wrote:I don't know Chinese but this is something I heard concerning Simplified vs Traditional characters from some Chinese friends, and thought it might be worth adding since Ryuujin sort of mentioned it. Learn Traditional characters (What HK and TW use them I believe) first, you can figure out many of the simplified characters from Traditional, but I've heard its very hard to figure out Traditional characters from simplified.

It's slightly harder figure out Traditional from Simplified, but it's not a huge difference. Starting with either is fine, really. Eventually you'll want to get used to reading both.

Traditional is easier coming from Japanese, or if you want to learn Japanese. More characters are identical/similar. Also since both Japanese and Simplified comes from Traditional, it makes it easier to connect all three variants. E.g. 從, 従 and 从. If you know 従, 從 is easy to learn and vice versa. If you know 從 then 从 is easy. If you know only know 従, however then 从 is kinda non-obvious. (However sometimes jap and simp are the same though, e.g. jap 国, simp 国 vs trad 國.)

Also, starting with traditional will help you distinguish some characters that have been merged in simplified. E.g. 裡(inside) vs 里(mile), or 面(face) vs 麵(wheat, flour). Also, traditional ones look nicer (or is that just me?).

Simplified is easier if you start from scratch, at least in the beginning. Especially so if you're not doing Heisig. Writing simplified by hand is quicker. Simplified can be easier to read in a really small font.