I m gonna be stoned to death for this one .....
Go for chinese . Korea will never be a top world player . Critical size . If you have time to spare after chinese THEN you study korean ... English+Japanese+Chinese=powerhouse
Besides economy is not only about job . It's about lifestyle possibilities and culture . Ever heard about the swahili animation industry ? me neither . Mass entertainment takes money . Loads and loads of money . Now true enough Korea has a fairly vivid cinema , internet ,etc... community and decent service (know it first hand as I fled to Korea when the nuclear crisis reached its worst ). But the Chinese can be a true global rival to US with everything that implies ..... Koreans are much too enamored with US (god stop wearing those US college jacket Alabama , Missouri ,etc... if you can't babble a single coherent sentence of english ! ) and too close to Japan to offer something really different .

I'm studying Korean now mainly because of the Korean friends I made while I was in Japan. I was around them most of the time and I heard a lot of Korean being spoken - of course I didn't understand any of it, but it interested me.

I've been using a site called Talk To Me In Korean. It is really really good. Currently they offer five levels made up of 20-30 lessons each and each lesson includes a pdf and a podcast. It has made it really easy to study - especially when you have a decent knowledge of Japanese. At the moment all I have to really do is learn new words for the grammar, or slightly new concepts about grammar, rather than trying to understand the ins and outs of the grammar like I did when I started learning Japanese. Also I have found that a large number of Korean words of Chinese origin are similar to Japanese in formation/pronunciation. For example 도착하다 (do-chak ha-da) sounds an awful lot like 到着する　(ha-da means the same as する）　or 学校 and 학교 (hak-gyo). Did I mention that the site is free too? (I don't have any connection to this site btw, I just found it through random googling).

I think the hardest thing for me so far is the number system (which is more complicated than Japanese for me anyway) and using my keyboard to type in Korean. It is a sinch to write, unlike kanji that you can get mental blocks on or just simply forget. I do agree however that the presence of kanji, hiragana and katakana in Japanese does make it easy to read though.

ghinzdra Wrote:I m gonna be stoned to death for this one .....
Go for chinese . Korea will never be a top world player . Critical size . If you have time to spare after chinese THEN you study korean ... English+Japanese+Chinese=powerhouse
Besides economy is not only about job . It's about lifestyle possibilities and culture . Ever heard about the swahili animation industry ? me neither . Mass entertainment takes money . Loads and loads of money . Now true enough Korea has a fairly vivid cinema , internet ,etc... community and decent service (know it first hand as I fled to Korea when the nuclear crisis reached its worst ). But the Chinese can be a true global rival to US with everything that implies ..... Koreans are much too enamored with US (god stop wearing those US college jacket Alabama , Missouri ,etc... if you can't babble a single coherent sentence of english ! ) and too close to Japan to offer something really different .

As you predicted, you should be criticized for this post. For one, because you should write real sentences so we can know what you're trying to say (what the hell does 'critical size' mean here?). I can't even really criticize you well because I don't know what you're saying half the time.

But more important than the bad writing, is the fact that you're spewing out nonsense. Korea has one of the most popular entertainment industries in the world. Korean music is huge in Asia. Lots of Korean movies have recently been very highly acclaimed internationally (the best example being Old Boy). Saying Korea 'has internet' is a huge understatement; you mean that Korea has the best internet in the world, with the highest percentage of people connected to high speed internet. Koreans love US culture too much? Japan seems to have done fine, being the second biggest economy in the world until recently, all the while loving US culture to death.

Yeah, Korea is not currently a global rival to the US... but could you have predicted that Japan would soon have the second biggest economy in the world very soon if it was 1955? I think not, but that's what happened.

If you don't know what you're talking about, you really shouldn't talk. And it's not like I've got some personal reason to defend Korea, as I'm not interested in Korean culture in the least. It's just that what you said is complete bull.

What Tzadeck said. Additionally, China's property market is in (BROKEN LINK) a major bubble anyway, and its bursting could be even more catastrophic than 2008 in the US. Not that it should defer anyone genuinely interested in Chinese culture from studying the language: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...investment

Tzadeck Wrote:

ghinzdra Wrote:I m gonna be stoned to death for this one .....
Go for chinese . Korea will never be a top world player . Critical size . If you have time to spare after chinese THEN you study korean ... English+Japanese+Chinese=powerhouse
Besides economy is not only about job . It's about lifestyle possibilities and culture . Ever heard about the swahili animation industry ? me neither . Mass entertainment takes money . Loads and loads of money . Now true enough Korea has a fairly vivid cinema , internet ,etc... community and decent service (know it first hand as I fled to Korea when the nuclear crisis reached its worst ). But the Chinese can be a true global rival to US with everything that implies ..... Koreans are much too enamored with US (god stop wearing those US college jacket Alabama , Missouri ,etc... if you can't babble a single coherent sentence of english ! ) and too close to Japan to offer something really different .

As you predicted, you should be criticized for this post. For one, because you should write real sentences so we can know what you're trying to say (what the hell does 'critical size' mean here?). I can't even really criticize you well because I don't know what you're saying half the time.

But more important than the bad writing, is the fact that you're spewing out nonsense. Korea has one of the most popular entertainment industries in the world. Korean music is huge in Asia. Lots of Korean movies have recently been very highly acclaimed internationally (the best example being Old Boy). Saying Korea 'has internet' is a huge understatement; you mean that Korea has the best internet in the world, with the highest percentage of people connected to high speed internet. Koreans love US culture too much? Japan seems to have done fine, being the second biggest economy in the world until recently, all the while loving US culture to death.

Yeah, Korea is not currently a global rival to the US... but could you have predicted that Japan would soon have the second biggest economy in the world very soon if it was 1955? I think not, but that's what happened.

If you don't know what you're talking about, you really shouldn't talk. And it's not like I've got some personal reason to defend Korea, as I'm not interested in Korean culture in the least. It's just that what you said is complete bull.

I guess I had it coming ....and I would let it slide considering I didn't put much effort into it if you weren't an even worse analyst than me (although it s likely you overreacted because you thought my statements toward Korea were borderline contemptuous )...
- culture : did I say Korean culture is without interest ? I said "vivid communities" . It's rather positive . It seems to me to be a more proper and fair assessment of the level of their entertainment industry than your unreserved praise . Yes they do have internationally acclaimed movies . You took as an exemple Park chan woo's Oldboy , you could add Bong Joon-ho's movies , Kim ki duk's a critic favorite , Kim ji woon's dubbed the korean Tarantino ,etc... . I would even add that their current movie production system is now widely considered the world's best (the French who used to have that honor are now studying the Korean system ).
- music : although I obviously didn't understand shit about the lyrics I had my fair share of korean hip pop as the korean acquaintance who drove me throughout seoul everyday during my stay had a top notch audio system in his car and I had music blasting in my ears 6 hours a day . I enjoyed it enough to ask frequently the artist names and took notes for future searches on my itouch : drunken tiger , mc mon , mc sniper , lulla , chocolate,. and I don't even like japanese hip pop .
- internet : did I say that Korea was some kind of third world country , living in a communication middleage ? I said they had a decent service .Back then I didn't feel the need to elaborate further considering it wasn't the main point for me (I'll get to the main point in the next paragraph) but if I need to make it clear I do agree with you about the fact they have the world's best internet service .

At this point you could say : if you acknowledge they have so many world class service and good stuff how can you be so dismissive about korea ?

let's talk numbers : their all time grossing movie was the Host . It made around 90 millions dollars . I saw it about a month ago in a DVD bang in Korea so I think I have a pretty good memory of it . the FX are crap , the lack of money is obvious throughout the movie . I enjoyed it but it's irrelevant . It's a half assed movie . And comedy is not an excuse . Reitman's Evolution for me would be the proper US counterpart . It is an older , more low brow comedy (while the host has obvious political comments . So the Host has to step up . ) and yet the monster FX are leaps and bounds above the Host . The difference ? a budget of 11 million for the south korean blockbuster , a budget of 80 milllion for the independant american movie.... with that kind of financing how could they secure the costly distribution agreement and bankable actors(who are nothing more than brands) that make a worldwide blockbuster ? (and before you say that reach doesn't matter I must point out that the very reason why young koreans wear american college jackets is because US have this kind of reach and know how to sell their culture . Culture is as everything else an economic issue . )

They have the world best internet ? let's look at top internet communities ...
English 1st about 535 millions members
Chinese 2nd about 445 millions members
Japanese 4th community 99 millions members . 1st world user of twitter
Korean ? 10th communnity 39.5 millions members ...
Now tell me you really think that 1 korean can produce as much content as 10 chineses ?

They don't have the critical size to offer the world a cultural alternative to US. Period . They have a very high standard of living but so is Iceland and who want to learn Icelandic language ? China may blow up but they have the potential to offer a new world vision.

I'm fully aware of the huge risks of the chinese economy
-very quickly ageing population
-imbalance between country and cities
- awkward relationship with foreign investors as the once danone wahaha model proved it with their fallout (partly because of the 2nd reason ).
- ressource problem (excellent analysis by BCG of their water problem)
those are the reasons why , rather than China , some think tank and companies are betting on India . But the main question was a choice between China and Korea .And I won't give you an inch on this .


Because bottomline it's all about numbers , the rest is litterature . Korea is a dwarf and always will be . My only error here is to be so blunt about it that it looks like an insult . And frankly I don't care . This is not a political/meeting discussion where you have to reach an agreement with everyone (in which case I mitigate because it's a different process ) . It's a decision calling topic. And you have to cut to the core .

ghinzdra Wrote:So the Host has to step up . )

Dude, what's with the spaces before all your punctuation? Where did you learn to type?

ghinzdra Wrote:Korea is a dwarf and always will be . My only error here is to be so blunt about it that it looks like an insult . And frankly I don't care . This is not a political/meeting discussion where you have to reach an agreement with everyone (in which case I mitigate because it's a different process ) . It's a decision calling topic. And you have to cut to the core .

Korea is hardly a dwarf. Just a simple internet search can prove this.

Just look at the wikipedia article on the South Korean economy (yes it is wikipedia, but it is the easy place to find all the relevant information gathered in one area).

- 15th in the world by nominal GDP
- 6th largest exporter and 10th largest importer
- Economic growth rate of 6.1% in 2010 (compare that to the USA/European countries...)

You can't exactly say that it doesn't play a large role in the wider global economy along with it's culture as you have already mentioned.

Couldn't see myself pursuing a language to fluency when one of my biggest motivations is GDP figures. Who cares? Oh look, China has a larger GDP than Japan now, let's abandon Japanese?

fakewookie Wrote:Couldn't see myself pursuing a language to fluency when one of my biggest motivations is GDP figures. Who cares? Oh look, China has a larger GDP than Japan now, let's abandon Japanese?

That's not what I am suggesting...just merely stating that Korea can hardly be considered a dwarf on a global scale.

SendaiDan Wrote:

ghinzdra Wrote:Korea is a dwarf and always will be . My only error here is to be so blunt about it that it looks like an insult . And frankly I don't care . This is not a political/meeting discussion where you have to reach an agreement with everyone (in which case I mitigate because it's a different process ) . It's a decision calling topic. And you have to cut to the core .

Korea is hardly a dwarf. Just a simple internet search can prove this.

Just look at the wikipedia article on the South Korean economy (yes it is wikipedia, but it is the easy place to find all the relevant information gathered in one area).

- 15th in the world by nominal GDP
- 6th largest exporter and 10th largest importer
- Economic growth rate of 6.1% in 2010 (compare that to the USA/European countries...)

You can't exactly say that it doesn't play a large role in the wider global economy along with it's culture as you have already mentioned.

Sorry I was a bit pissed off ...Besides I always make simplifications in a binary decision process . It's not a nuanced thing , you need clear axes and clear oppositions .And at the end it's A or B . A lukewarm opinion is what you need for gathering people , not for taking this kind of individual decision . "Yeah Korean is cool ... but Chinese is cool too.... " you go nowhere .
I think I never trashed Korea and I enjoyed my stay there . I just deemed chinese is me a better professional/personal/cultural INVESTMENT. They have the territory , the people and the economic muscle to provide opportunities that Korea will never be able to give . All this GDP talk is the usual straw man attacked by romantic people to criticize any down to earth analysis . It's not about money , it's about possibilities .

A language is an investement . A very expensive investment conditionned you're serious about it
you spend thousands of bucks in a car you want to get as much as you can have for that money
you spend thousands of hours in a language why shouldn't you get as much as you can ?

ghinzdra Wrote:you spend thousands of hours in a language why shouldn't you get as much as you can ?

I guess that settles it then.

Attention, people of Earth:
If you are learning a second language other than Chinese, and you don't already know Chinese, you are wasting your time! Studying Chinese is obviously the best way to get a return on your time investment. Chinese is the next economic superpower. There's only one obvious choice for a language to study, and it's Chinese.

JimmySeal Wrote:

ghinzdra Wrote:you spend thousands of hours in a language why shouldn't you get as much as you can ?

I guess that settles it then.

Attention, people of Earth:
If you are learning a second language other than Chinese, and you don't already know Chinese, you are wasting your time! Studying Chinese is obviously the best way to get a return on your time investment. Chinese is the next economic superpower. There's only one obvious choice for a language to study, and it's Chinese.

you forget t add "by order of the next economic pundit ghinzdra "

c'mn I ask a little goodwilll here .Do I have to remind you that I am learning japanese ? and FIY I still don't know a single word of chinese . Both my sisters hate asians languages but are interested by spanish : Do I tell them oh no spanish is only like the 3rd most spoken language you should go for chinese ?
This guy asked for a choice INCLUDING chinese .
I m not saying A is the cure-all medecine , the it object and you can't live without it , B , C ,D , E ,F are worthless . He asks between A and B . And I m just telling him A offers more than B . And this perfectly sound reasoning , none of you guys can disprove it and you prefer to use dummy arguments .

Why is half the world english obsessed ? because it provides an access to a matchless entertainment and information offer , because it provides you a certain freedom around the world to travel , to find a job abroad or whatever you like . It offer opportunities .
Now I apply the same kind of analysis for Chinese and it's heartless and oblivious to the rest of the world ?

Let's get back to the basics . He asked between korean and chinese . I told him chinese offers more on the long term . That's it .

ghinzdra Wrote:Why is half the world english obsessed ? because it provides an access to a matchless entertainment and information offer , because it provides you a certain freedom around the world to travel , to find a job abroad or whatever you like . It offer opportunities .
Now I apply the same kind of analysis for Chinese and it's heartless and oblivious to the rest of the world ?

No, even if someone came here asking about the pros and cons of learning English vs. Mongolian, it would be ridiculous to say that they should definitely, no-two-ways-about-it, go for English.

Choosing a language to learn isn't a black and white situation, no matter which two languages are being compared. Korean has plenty of things Chinese doesn't - a softer phonological system, an alphabetic writing system that won't require learning any additional kanji, a similarity to Japanese that could make learning Korean a whole lot easier than learning Chinese, and plenty more.

Which language Ryuujin27 should learn is entirely a matter of his/her personal preferences and feelings. He/she is the only person who can decide which is the better one for him/her to learn. All we can do is give him/her information to aid in that decision.

JimmySeal Wrote:

ghinzdra Wrote:So the Host has to step up . )

Dude, what's with the spaces before all your punctuation? Where did you learn to type?

I've seen similar problems before, so at first I just assumed he was Chinese, but he said he wasn't right? I always assumed it was due to space being superfluous in Chinese (and Japanese)...

Anyway, I was bored and it annoyed me, so here's a quick fix (paste into URL bar for fun and profit)

Code:

javascript:(function(){var a=document.getElementsByClassName("username");for(var i=0,j=0;i<a.length;i++){if(a[i].innerHTML.indexOf('ghinzdra')!=-1){j++;var m=a[i].parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByClassName("message")[0];m.innerHTML=m.innerHTML.replace(/( |&nbsp;)+/g, " ").replace(/ ?([.,:;?!)]+) ?/g,"$1").replace(/([.,:;?!)]+)/g,"$1 ").replace(/([0-9])([.,:;?!)]+) (?=[0-9])/g,"$1$2")};};alert(j + " posts modified.")})()

Awesome. Doesn't handle spaces before quotation marks (and there are a few), but nifty trick.

ghinzdra, I guess the tone of your initial comment was just a bit too reminiscent of the whole "Japanese is SOOO 20-years-ago, Chinese is where it's at" chorus. I am studying at a business school right now and I have seen a few of those fad-language learners, so it was more than a little annoying. Thank you for explaining your position clearer.

Anyway, even if we look at it purely from a "financial opportunities and prospects" angle, I still don't consider the choice between Chinese and Korean that obvious. You mentioned that Korea was "too close to Japan to offer something really different". Well, with Japan apparently heading into another Lost Decade, it doesn't really have to. Doing what the Japanese do better than the Japanese is what Koreans have been aiming for for the last two decades and they have made huge advances in that direction, most significantly in the shipbuilding industry, but also in the automotive and consumer electronics industries.

As much as I love Japan, I just don't see it regaining its old position in the future, in fact I believe that its decline is far from over. As for China, I have already briefly stated my opinion about the future of its growth (I am too tired to make an intelligent argument right now, so I'll just link to an article and delude myself into thinking that my intellectual laziness went unnoticed ). That leaves South Korea as the safest bet in the region, with its steady growth, high standard of living and export-oriented pop-culture that is taking over Asia (I mean, look at this - freakin' Manipur!).

But then again, it's not like 大韓民国 doesn't have problems and risks of its own, the most notable being its northern neighbour. Even the most optimistic scenarios of a peaceful reunification imply a massive burden on the South's economy, not to mention the possibility of another military conflict and the instability of the current status quo. There is also the possibility of repeating some or all of Japan's mistakes and failures. And also, I don't know how much the Japanese themselves believed in 1980s America's "Japan's gonna take over the world" predictions, but a significant number of modern South Koreans seem to be happily buying into their own hype, which could make a possible crisis even worse.

So at the end of the day, I don't believe that "economic" arguments are decisive here. Any language, if you learn it to a level of fluency (which would be hard if you are merely following a fad), opens up opportunities, so why choose a language you can do nothing interesting in just because you think it's "the next big thing"?

can studying a language really augment your current opportunities?

there's a hot trend right now to study Mandarin, but i never understood why. even if i knew Mandarin i really can't imagine how it'd help me work better or be better prepared in the future. i feel like there are people already hired specifically to work in both languages and only to do that. if you want to go for interpreting or translation then by all means go ahead.

but somehow i feel like learning a language other than English for business and such is highly overrated...

kainzero Wrote:even if i knew Mandarin i really can't imagine how it'd help me work better or be better prepared in the future.

There seems to be more status in learning Chinese right now. I wonder about those people who were learning Russian in the 70’s and what they think they got out of it now. China can flop too, who knows.

I don’t know if it’s me, but it seems like Russian and Chinese (psst piracy) resources rule next to English, and in my current situation it would be great if I had access to that. I’m disappointed that Japanese lacks in that area, they seem rather slow compared to others. What happens when I’m bored with their anime/media? There seems to be nothing useful except for entertainment, from my viewpoint. Chinese at least provide both entertainment and vast cheap knowledge resource, for now and the foreseeable future.

SheekuAltair Wrote:I wonder about those people who were learning Russian in the 70’s and what they think they got out of it now.

They quit their CIA government jobs and made millions of dollars in the private sector.

SendaiDan Wrote:

fakewookie Wrote:Couldn't see myself pursuing a language to fluency when one of my biggest motivations is GDP figures. Who cares? Oh look, China has a larger GDP than Japan now, let's abandon Japanese?

That's not what I am suggesting...just merely stating that Korea can hardly be considered a dwarf on a global scale.

That wasn't aimed at you, I was dismissing the entire debate in general.

vonPeterhof Wrote:As much as I love Japan, I just don't see it regaining its old position in the future, in fact I believe that its decline is far from over. As for China, I have already briefly stated my opinion about the future of its growth (I am too tired to make an intelligent argument right now, so I'll just link to an article and delude myself into thinking that my intellectual laziness went unnoticed ). That leaves South Korea as the safest bet in the region, with its steady growth, high standard of living and export-oriented pop-culture that is taking over Asia (I mean, look at this - freakin' Manipur!).

Both Chinese and Japanese declines would be disastrous for Korea. These economies are interconnected.

well i read somewehre the shared kango b,t, korean and japanese is 75% and i think chinese is lower. so like to take advantage of your japanese knowledge, korean would be better choice as far as kango and grammar goes (though i thin kkorean grammar is more complicated than japanese)

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:well i read somewehre the shared kango b,t, korean and japanese is 75% and i think chinese is lower. so like to take advantage of your japanese knowledge, korean would be better choice as far as kango and grammar goes (though i thin kkorean grammar is more complicated than japanese)

Same can be said for Chinese, in terms of kanji.　Take 90% of your kanji knowledge, for Chinese. Either way, whatever language you decide to learn, it will never be waste. Some languages have provides more opportunities than others but it's up to you to find those oppoturnities. Ask youreself why do you want to learn another language, in the first place? Choose the language which fits your answer.

Amen.

DevvaR Wrote:

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:well i read somewehre the shared kango b,t, korean and japanese is 75% and i think chinese is lower. so like to take advantage of your japanese knowledge, korean would be better choice as far as kango and grammar goes (though i thin kkorean grammar is more complicated than japanese)

Same can be said for Chinese, in terms of kanji.　Take 90% of your kanji knowledge, for Chinese. Either way, whatever language you decide to learn, it will never be waste. Some languages have provides more opportunities than others but it's up to you to find those oppoturnities. Ask youreself why do you want to learn another language, in the first place? Choose the language which fits your answer.

i'M SAYING this because the kanji advantage is bigger with korean　as compared to chinese. of course the kanji knowledge from japanese is going to be helpful with learning korean and chinese but 'im just saying there's more advntage with the kango with korean. I remember googling kango and korean and reading about it. So i'm just saying what I read before.

I know how to read Japanese but chinese is like WTF cause there's no hiragana and they just have more kanji and sometimes I have no idea what is going on... but if you change let's say the news article that's written in hanguel to hanja to its limit (all the kango in it)
it's clear that kango advantage is better with korean.

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:i'M SAYING this because the kanji advantage is bigger with korean　as compared to chinese. of course the kanji knowledge from japanese is going to be helpful with learning korean and chinese but 'im just saying there's more advntage with the kango with korean. I remember googling kango and korean and reading about it. So i'm just saying what I read before.

I know how to read Japanese but chinese is like WTF cause there's no hiragana and they just have more kanji and sometimes I have no idea what is going on...

So can you read Korean with your current Japanese knowledge? Even when someone who has gone through RTK, they're are able to decipher bits and pieces of a Chinese newspaper.

Quote:but if you change let's say the news article that's written in hanguel to hanja to its limit (all the kango in it)
it's clear that kango advantage is better with korean.

As far as I know, in Modern Korea, Hanja has been abandoned and hardly being used anymore. So far what you've said is Kanji is a better advantage with Korean than Chinese, but you haven't given any examples or facts.