Ok well I have recently run into a major barrier at work. The teacher I work with has stated that I can't read magazines or manga or newspaper or anything like that. Not even novels or books etc.

So I tell her that it's because I am studying Japanese and my friend who was the old teacher here studied Japanese at work all the time.

This is when she says that it is ok for me to study Japanese out of a textbook but that reading magazines and studying words is not studying Japanese so I can't do it at work.

This brings me to my question. Is there an explanation written in all Japanese about the AJATT method? Particulary the sentence mining from sources you find enjoyable part.

Thanks a lot.

It's a little different, as it doesn't have sentence mining and things, but the book
「英語は絶対、勉強するな」
gets the point across that you should study from materials you find interesting, etc, all that stuff. It says 'absolutely don't study English,' but what he means is that studying shouldn't feel like "studying," or whatever.

What's your level of Japanese? Maybe you're past textbook level, and could somehow use that to your advantage? Otherwise you could pick up a copy of D*JG and bring that along too, with a notebook, and keep notes of the things you're "studying"-- to at least try to make it look like you're 'studying.'

Sh*t i feel sorry for you bro. If she can't even see the value of reading newspapers then she is f#&ked.. I bet she hasn't had sex since WW2 and this is her revenge against american men for not sleeping with her...
/end rant/

I sincerely apologize for the above... but if I had to work with anybody that mental. I would definitely be looking for a new place to work... (Although I would definitely try to be diplomatic first). Unfortunately I don't know of AJATT explained in Japanese... but maybe try to email khatzumoto himself. If he knows of anything I'm sure he will be glad to help.

Lol, dude, there's a bathroom right? Reps were meant to be done in gaps. Just drink lots of coffee or tell them you have a bit of a funny stomach and hit the bathroom with you ipod, whatever.

You could also buy a textbook completely in Japanese and start there. Alternatively, as it sounds like your working in a school with a lot of Japanese around, read anything that's on the wall, or go to the library and hang out with the kids, read them English books and get them to read to you in Japanese and English during you lunch break (read: free mobile audio book - you, of course, look at the page too.) Also, start a translation project of kids news or something and put it up on the wall or something. My friend who is an ALT did all of this at one point and he reckons it works (it also makes your school love you too, but he's a likable guy, so well...)

Wow! Can't believe that mindset at all.
Good luck!

On the topic of them reading to you, why not buy a copy of whatever book the kids like best in Japanese in English and read them the English then get them to read you the Japanese. Sort of like whats in those textbooks.

Just to add a little more info. It's a junior highschool. The library is not open all the time. Only for like 30 minutes a day because they are scared the children will steal books from the library.

Asriel what is the name of that book you mentioned? It blocked out the word when you entered it.

They ALT before me was a dude who learned Japanese to fluent level from textbooks at work, although his family was half Japanese. So they must think that is the only thing that counts as studying.

And the bathroom is all Japanese style. No way I am going to stand in the stall for any period of time longer than a few minutes. Plus they complained to my company before about me leaving the staff room for longer than 10 minutes and not telling anyone where I was.

This is completely ridiculous. Even so, I don't think you'll be able to change her mind whatever supporting material you come up with. Once someone takes that kind of position it is usually difficult for them to back down.

What if you found a Japanese language/literature textbook produced for Japanese university or high school students? I don't have any experience with them, but I assume they would provide you with challenging and interesting materials in a 'learning' context. As an example, I've been enjoying working with NHK's 高校講座 online contents for their 現代文 and 国語表現 courses. Surely she couldn't object to you using Japanese native, language-focused textbooks, could she?

Man that's tough luck...

I'm sure you can talk your teacher into letting you read native material -appropriate to your level-

If I was paying a Japanese person to teach Japanese at my school and he had a really low level of English, I'd be pissed if I that person was wasting his time by throwing out level appropriate materials and started reading materials he was years away from understanding. I kind of understand where the teacher is coming from.

It is by reading "higher level" material that you will get better. If you stay in your comfort zone for too long .. well enjoy it.

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:It is by reading "higher level" material that you will get better. If you stay in your comfort zone for too long .. well enjoy it.

true words

NoSleepTilFluent Wrote:It is by reading "higher level" material that you will get better. If you stay in your comfort zone for too long .. well enjoy it.

Of course, but it's a gradual process. One does not simply go from Dr Seuss to the NY Times. I don't know the OPs level of Japanese, but if they cannot explain the AJATT method in Japanese, then they have no business reading Japanese magazines or novels.

As a coincidence, I just finished translating the ajatt plan/graph (not the whole method, just the flow-charty thingy) into Japanese so that I could explain to my coworkers at my JHS how I'm studying. Not that they care, really, but I still need to keep myself busy so I can ignore being ignored... I work at a "bad" school, so the teachers are usually focused on things besides education because the students give them so much trouble. Officially, it's not my responsibility and I'm not supposed to get involved so I spend a lot of time studying.

On the translation, though, SRS still takes time to explain just like it does in English (the spaced part, that is). Maybe you can show them that and it will help. Also, do take juniperpansy's advice and e-mail khatz. He may be able to help you out a lot more.

So, e-mail me through this forum and I'll reply to you with the translation. I already checked and I can't do any attachments through this forum's e-mail service.

Alternatively, or while still trying to convince them (since you mentioned ajatt and you're here, I assume you're using some kind of srs), take care of preparing all of your study material at home and getting it into your srs (and computer, if they're separate) before you come to work so that you can still go over stuff you like, but just look like you're not actually reading manga during work hours.

Also, check your contract and see if there is anything related to this kind of issue in any way shape or form. If not, proceed. Otherwise, they are paying you and you did sign their contract so you'll need to play by their rules if you want to continue getting paid.

As far as working with Japanese adults go, until you can converse with them on or close to their level, I would say don't try to change their minds of anything. Just do and let the results speak for themselves. We have a saying in JET, sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than ask permission. To me, this sounds like one of those cases. But it's very important how you go about it so that when you do ask for forgiveness, they'll have already forgiven you because they can see that it worked and no one was harmed or embarassed.

While not completely relevant because you probably won't be arguing with your coworkers, check out this video to get some background on working with disagreements in Japanese. It's a bit hyperbole, but I think there is still some relevant stuff in there to refresh how you can handle a situation that arises.

Remember, changes start from the bottom up in Japanese hierarchy! Don't go over anyone's head, start with yourself and your peers and those that have a similar standing as you (i.e., temps, new teachers, young teachers. It'll help if you have a teaching license [learn this in Japanese if you don't know how to say it] so you're not too close to the actual assistant part of ALT and you can remind people that you are, in fact, qualified to be doing what you're doing). Things don't happen suddenly here. They trickle. Slowly.

kitakitsune Wrote:Of course, but it's a gradual process. One does not simply go from Dr Seuss to the NY Times. I don't know the OPs level of Japanese, but if they cannot explain the AJATT method in Japanese, then they have no business reading Japanese magazines or novels.

I really wish there was a dislike button or something.

If magazines and novels are what one is into, then one does have business reading them! Who are you to tell someone that they can or cannot read something? This is not a totalitarian society.

Fine let me reword that then. I believe the op is seriously wasting their time trying to read magazines and novels when they cannot speak even basic Japanese.

I think the teacher is correct. Read your manga on your own time or talk them into letting you study books for Japanese elementary school kids.

The school has a legitimate point in not letting you read novels and magazines that are far beyond your level of understanding. You are getting paid to teach English after all..

kitakitsune Wrote:I believe the op is seriously wasting their time trying to read magazines and novels when they cannot speak even basic Japanese.

Define basic Japanese.

Do you agree that learning should be enjoyable? Or do you think that education is one size fits all?

Eastwood Wrote:Do you agree that learning should be enjoyable? Or do you think that education is one size fits all?

I don't really feel comfortable talking further about the language levels of someone I don't know. But I personally believe that explaining in Japanese a desire to study from materials you enjoy falls under the basic category.

And yes I do believe that language learning should be enjoyable. If they get more enjoyment out of slugging through very advanced native level material, game on and gambatte.

However, I think this is a very inefficient method at low skill levels. Combine this with the fact that you are at a workplace getting paid to do something completely separate, but the staff encourages you to study Japanese on the clock (holy crap I want to get paid to study Japanese). I think they have some stake in how you choose to do this. Besides general language learning debates, you have to consider the professionalism of hanging out in a staff room reading manga and magazines all day.

kitakitsune Wrote:I don't really feel comfortable talking further about the language levels of someone I don't know. But I personally believe that explaining in Japanese a desire to study from materials you enjoy falls under the basic category.

Fair enough.

kitakitsune Wrote:And yes I do believe that language learning should be enjoyable. If they get more enjoyment out of slugging through very advanced native level material, game on and gambatte.

Is this reading native level material with parallel text or not? Are we giving people the benefit of the doubt that they are smart enough to pick something that they enjoy already and then finding a Japanese version or not? I'd like to think that we are and in which case I'd say that it's a very common and useful method.

Excerpt from an analysis of Kató Lomb’s (one of the worlds best polyglots) Strategies for Language Learning and SLA Theory by Scott Alkire. http://www.lingua.org.uk/lomb.alkire.html

In her book, Lomb describes her strategies for learning a foreign language through the construct of a made-up language, Azilian. She assumes that she has had no exposure to Azilian and that it shares no cognates with her native language or any language she knows. Because of her conscious application of strategies to learn languages, Krashen (1997) calls Lomb’s experience “very relevant to foreign language education” (p. 41).

--

“As all this is a bit tedious, right from the outset I start reading Azilian plays or short stories. If I’m lucky, there will be ‘adapted’ texts available. If not, I just start on any literature published before 1950. (I can have trouble understanding the style of modern novels, even in my native Hungarian.) I always buy books in pairs: this increases the chance that at least one will be comprehensible.

“I start on the comprehensible novel immediately. To go from incomprehension to half-understanding to complete understanding is an exciting and inspiring journey of discovery worthy of the spirit of a mature person. By the time I finish the journey, I part with the book feeling that this has been a profitable and fun enterprise.

“At first reading, I only write out words that I manage to understand, that is, words whose meaning I have been able to figure out from context. Naturally, I do not write them out in isolation, but in the context they appeared. It is only after a second or third reading that I look up words unknown to me. Even then, I do not look up each and every one. With those that I record in my notebook, I include the vortex of meaning supplied by the book or by any contemporary dictionary worthy of the name.”


Notes
The research on whether adapted texts are superior to authentic texts in aiding L2 acquisition is inconclusive. One practical solution, supported by many recent studies, is to have students choose their own texts (“free voluntary reading”). This would be consistent with Lomb’s strategy. Krashen (2003) writes that free voluntary reading “is now perhaps the most thoroughly investigated and best-supported [language learning] technique we have in the field of second-language pedagogy” (p. 26).

Lomb’s strategy of learning vocabulary in context is strongly supported by SLA research (see Seal, 1991; Ur, 1996; Harmer, 2001).

Get one of Kató's whole book here in pdf format: http://tesl-ej.org/ej45/fr1abs.html

kitakitsune Wrote:However, I think this is a very inefficient method at low skill levels. Combine this with the fact that you are at a workplace getting paid to do something completely separate, but the staff encourages you to study Japanese on the clock (holy crap I want to get paid to study Japanese). I think they have some stake in how you choose to do this. Besides general language learning debates, you have to consider the professionalism of hanging out in a staff room reading manga and magazines all day.

I don't think it's inefficient if it's being combined with other strategies. If that's all one is doing, then, yes, I'd agree on that.

Unless there is a section in someone's contract stating how they are to go about studying during work hours, I don't think the contracting organization has much say in it beyond don't be disruptive to the workplace environment and your coworkers.

It's not hanging out in the staffroom. It's your desk in the staffroom. That's where you are when you do not have classes. It's quite common for ALT's to be underutilized and so end up with a lot of free time once done planning for class(es) for the day/week.

jac, if you're going to use physical media, get some book covers. I'm sure you've noticed them on a trains and whatnot if you're in an urban area. And if not, just go hit up a bookstore. They're easy enough to get a hold of.

Edit: and ditto on the professionalism. Whatever you're trying to do there, jac, keep it professional and try to fit in with your teacher group. That's where the book covers come in, it at least doesn't look like manga. Remember, maintaining face and keeping up apperances are sometimes more important in Japan than what's actually going on.

Well, you should probably tell her to go f**k herself, but yeah「英語は絶対、勉強するな」would probably get the message across.

Here in the real world we can't go tell our bosses to ***** off, especially when they are graciously letting you study Japanese at work. Try to explain how you study and tell her you won't be reading manga and magazines at work. Or you can try photocopying a few pages at a time and using that. It's not as obnoxious as reading a manga or magazine at your workplace.

That's news to me (obviously I wasn't serious). But yes, I would love to tell an ignorant person such as that to f**k off; I've had many exasperating experiences with stubborn people who try and tell me how to study.

Reading a manga/magazine/novel etc during working hours looks unprofessional and you shouldn't do it except maybe during lunch. It makes everyone else feel uncomfortable and it's especially bad if the students see it. That doesn't mean you have to stare at Genki or whatever though.

What I did when I taught at JHS was get copies of the textbooks the students used and read through those. I also studied for kanji kentei and took it with the kids. Of course I also used Anki (on my phone, though they offered me a laptop).

try to see it from their point of view... reading manga won't seem like studying to many people, unless they have specific experience of the method. And, if you're just sitting there reading manga, honestly probably you aren't studying much.

Along with your manga, you should also have your dictionary of grammar out, anki and yahoo jp dic open on your computer, and be actively looking up & entering words you don't understand, and expressions you want to be able to say. If you're doing this, i think you'll be able to give a reasonable explanation about how it's studying, and how it's better or at least as good as a textbook. If not though, probably you're not going to be able to explain how it's studying, and probably you're not going to get a whole lot from doing it either... you'll only understand what you already understand mainly.

the rest depends on the character of your boss, like GreenAirth said... with many bosses, it's like it's impossible for them to back down. So, try to think about how you can explain it to her in a way that lets your boss save face and make it seem like your taking their advice to heart, while still needing to use real Japanese materials alongside textbooks.

but if she won't back down, it's not the end of the world either. there's plenty of other learning materials than manga that will be acceptable... parallel texts, or school textbooks, etc that other people have suggested.

most people (except this forum!) really have no clue how to learn a language so of course she's gonna say that.

I remember when I first started, I listened to Japanese music, watched raw anime and played Visual Novels (that I REALLY didn't understand) and it all really helped! Especially playing the visual novels, which I learned a lot from in the end I think.

It doesn't matter whether it's the toughest stuff there is and you're at 0 Japanese, so long as you stick at it for long enough, it'll eventually be understandable.

Most people lack either common sense or motivation when it comes to language learning and I for one can't work for the life of me which one it is.

So don't expect them to magically see things your way. でも、負けるな！がんばれ！