SomeCallMeChris Wrote:I don't really want to get into quibbling about those kinds of numbers, the point I was trying to make is that I think it's best to not spend more than a small fraction of your time doing Anki reps. You need some time for other kinds of study, of course. But, actually using the language - whether you're consuming some form of media or communicating with people should be the majority of your time. After all, using the language is the whole point of learning it, and simply reading is one of the best ways to improve your language skills.

I mostly agree, but I think its somewhat a sliding scale for how much time you should devote to one or the other. In the very very beginning when you know next to nothing, its difficult to learn by watching TV or just picking up a book, you don't know enough yet. You basically have no choice but to do lots of textbook reading, basic grammar guides, and lots of vocabulary building in Anki. At that point, your time might be 0% native material and 100% Anki/other study material.

As you get better and better though you need more native input to better understand how it fits together, as well as to solidify the things that you have been learning before. Perhaps at an intermediate level you will be doing 50/50, and as you get better and better eventually you can bin Anki completely and just learn from native input only.

For Japanese I'm much closer to the latter, although I do Anki reps I don't need to add tons of material, since I find I'm understanding the majority of what I read anyway. But my Chinese is at a beginner level, I crammed some 2-3k words very quickly but haven't had nearly enough native input afterwards, and a lot of that vocabulary is just not "sticking" yet. Hence the need for more and more native input, but it sure isn't time to give up on Anki yet!

(for what its worth, for languages like Spanish I wouldn't be suprised if you can entirely get there just through reading native materials only)

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:I don't really want to get into quibbling about those kinds of numbers, the point I was trying to make is that I think it's best to not spend more than a small fraction of your time doing Anki reps. You need some time for other kinds of study, of course. But, actually using the language - whether you're consuming some form of media or communicating with people should be the majority of your time. After all, using the language is the whole point of learning it, and simply reading is one of the best ways to improve your language skills.

This was the main point of my post. Not sure why anyone got hung up with any specific numbers as they were purely for example haha. That said one thing some of the other people arguing with you seemed to neglect is the time actually LEARNING the new words. I can review cards super fast but learning 35 news words to the point that I actually give it a "pass" in Anki is at least going to take a minute or more of combined study time per word. So that is 35 minutes for new words plus 300-350 reviews at 5 seconds per card review time is 25-30 minutes so being good and honest you'll be spending close to an hour or so on it.

And again there is nothing wrong with 35 new cards per day for some people but after being on this forum for roughly 5 years or so I know the realistic rates that most people see after a few years via the Anki figures they've posted. 35 new cards per day is 25,550 vocabulary words after 2 years of study. That would be amazing except the problem is hardly anyone (with extremely rare exception) hits anything close to that INCLUDING the people that say they add 35 new cards per day...simply because over the long term they don't. I think most long term members on this forum would agree that knowing "just" 15,000 words after 2 years would put you into the absolute top percentile of Japanese learners. In fact so would 10,000 words in the same period of time.

So what I'm saying is that if you are in it for the long term and over the long term it has shown to be EXTREMELY unlikely to actually learn over 15,000 words in say the first 2 year period then it might be very beneficial to shoot for the more realistic rate from the star and save yourself the potential burnout that can come with periods of trying to keep up with a high daily card count.

Hope that makes sense.

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:I feel that 350 reviews a day is going to take up too much time -- at least I would never be able to keep up with that -- but I also believe in context sentences and typed input checked answers, so, whatever. If other people can do 350 reviews on their lunch break, then that's fine.

Really? Do you have a good reason for this? I guess you've tried both and this works better for you?

I type my vocab review answers in kana (unless I do them on the phone) and they're still at 2-4 sec/review for me. Helps me focus a bit better and doesn't slow me down anyway, since I type pretty fast.

astendra Wrote:I type my vocab review answers in kana (unless I do them on the phone) and they're still at 2-4 sec/review for me. Helps me focus a bit better and doesn't slow me down anyway, since I type pretty fast.

What do you do about meanings/definitions?

If you're only memorizing reading for words, then it shouldn't be too hard to do 50+ new cards a day.

I just read them out in my head while typing.

activeaero Wrote:And again there is nothing wrong with 35 new cards per day for some people but after being on this forum for roughly 5 years or so I know the realistic rates that most people see after a few years via the Anki figures they've posted. 35 new cards per day is 25,550 vocabulary words after 2 years of study. That would be amazing except the problem is hardly anyone (with extremely rare exception) hits anything close to that INCLUDING the people that say they add 35 new cards per day...simply because over the long term they don't. I think most long term members on this forum would agree that knowing "just" 15,000 words after 2 years would put you into the absolute top percentile of Japanese learners. In fact so would 10,000 words in the same period of time.

It would probably more realistic to also note that after doing some 30+ words a day, for a year, that it would be challenging to find 30 more unknown words (unless they are highly uncommon/archaic/extremely specialized, etc.) on a consistent daily basis.

It is a little asinine for someone to argue against such hypothetical situations in respect to the long term, as the point of such exercises is to cram/memorize a vast amount of vocabulary in an artificial environment, which acts as a method to dramatically increase expose compared to extensive reading, in order to be able to access native media in a shorter amount of time.

The point isn't to continually add a consistently high number of words a day, over the period of years. If anyone actually thinks that they are missing the point entirely of such methods. It's like going to a batting cage to practice batting against a machine pitching balls at you. It is used as a training tool to artificially increase exposure to the batting environment in order to gain experience at a consistently higher rate than training with people in a standard training environment. The point isn't to be able to consistently strike a high number of pitches, the point is to prepare the user for certain vital aspects of the real game faster and more efficiently than relying on a human partner.

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:I don't really want to get into quibbling about those kinds of numbers, the point I was trying to make is that I think it's best to not spend more than a small fraction of your time doing Anki reps. You need some time for other kinds of study, of course. But, actually using the language - whether you're consuming some form of media or communicating with people should be the majority of your time.

Your description of "actually using the language" is specifically biased and arbitrary. Who do you think has more access to comprehensible input, and be able to "use" the "actual" language: someone with a passive comprehension of around 10,000 words, or someone with a passive comprehension of around 3,000 words? While the person with 3,000 words may take two or three years to reach what someone who crammed 10,000 words in a single year, and have an longer period getting used to said vocabulary; the person with 10,000 younger words in their head has access to a larger variety of contexts and grammatical patterns/usages for the next few years.

Looking at the long term, it's like working hard and saving food for the winter, while the other animals party and enjoy themselves, only coming to be pretty much in the same place they were not long ago, while those whom had a hard time initially are able to face the more difficult conditions later, with ease and comfort.

Looking at the long term, that is.

partner55083777 Wrote:

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:but I also believe in context sentences and typed input checked answers, so, whatever.

Really? Do you have a good reason for this? I guess you've tried both and this works better for you?

Yes, I find typed answers solve several problems. Basically two kinds of problems.

Pronunciation vagueness - With things that aren't distinguished in western language, especially っ and long vowel/short vowel; it's easy to fool your self into thinking you got the right answer when you didn't, and hard if you didn't type the answer to be sure you have the right answer. This becomes less true if you have better pronunciation or if you can make a habit of visualizing the kana spelling as you answer, but I'm happier with a typed answer.

Deeper and more 'audible' memory - I fail less often if I have to type the answer, and I'm -much- more likely to recognize a word in speech that I previously only known from writing. This is less true if you use audio on your cards (I haven't been, because it seemed like a pain under Anki 1 to keep it synced to anki mobile.) Speech recognition for obvious reasons is going to be even better with audio, and you're getting multi-sensory input from the card even without the tactile feedback of typing an answer.

uisukii Wrote:

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:But, actually using the language - whether you're consuming some form of media or communicating with people should be the majority of your time.

Your description of "actually using the language" is specifically biased and arbitrary.

My description of 'actually using' the language was carefully chosen to include reading books, manga, magazines, newspaper, and websites, speaking with people, exchanging e-mails, letters, and texts with people, using instant messaging services and chatrooms, watching movies, watching television programs, listening to the radio and podcasts, etc., etc, in far few words than that.

I don't see how it is anything other than extremely broad, and if it's not broad enough, I'd be glad to broaden it, but no, I don't consider doing anki reviews to be actually using the language.

Quote:Looking at the long term, it's like working hard and saving food for the winter, while the other animals party and enjoy themselves,

I totally disagree, -especially- if it feels like hard work. Study styles differ, and if you're totally content doing nothing but Anki reviews, then it will work out in the long run.

Of course you need to be vocab-heavy in your study for a few thousand words, but language doesn't communicate in words, it communicates in sentences, phrases, expressions, and patterns.

I'm recommending (whatever the number is) splitting your time between language use and vocabulary drilling, and more and more in favor of language use as you progress. Both to expose yourself to the language as it's actually used and to avoid burnout from doing nothing but grinding vocab.

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:doing nothing but grinding vocab.

This was never suggested or stated as being the idea or methodology. That is a straw-man argument.

Since it was overlooked, I'll bring it back up: in respect to sentences, phrases, fragmentation, collocations, patterns; who has a greater advantage of being able to focus on familiarizing and internalizing, someone with 10,000 words they understand or someone with 3,000 - 5,000 words they understand?

Maybe it's just me, but I certainly find grammatical patterns easier to comprehend when the words used to create the context are understood.

I do hear what you're saying, it's just that I don't believe you can 'understand' most words without encountering them in context. There are simple nouns that refer to concrete objects and simple physical action or property verbs and adjectives that have exact English equivalents, that are fully understood with just knowing the English equivalent.

But beyond that, there's a laddering effect. You need substantial exposure to the language to understand the phrases the words appear in, or you just have a salad of memorized English-equivalents. You need an understanding of the grammar (in habit and interpretation, not in rules that can be recited).

It only takes a few thousand words to begin with graded readers, simpler manga, nhk news easy http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy/ , language exchange partners, articles from chokochoko http://chokochoko.wordpress.com/the-great-library/ , articles from the JOI teachers blog http://www.japonin.com/Japanese_teachers_blog.html , or the reading material bank http://language.tiu.ac.jp/materials/jpn/index.html , or folktalkes from hukumusume http://hukumusume.com/douwa/ . For anime and dorama, as long as you choose relatively simple ones that have a Japanese subtitle file available, you can easily do a focused study of the words you need for any given work.

It -would- take tens of thousands of words to understand all of those resources without doing any dictionary look-ups or focused study, sure. And if you don't focus on one area, your vocabulary needs will be much greater... the specific vocabulary in the news and the specific vocabulary in folktales have almost no overlap. But with a just a 3-5k word vocabulary and selective study of a few more words every day you can very completely comprehend a number of things. If you build up a vocabulary from folktales then you'll be in a better position to understand, say, Taiga dramas or other period fiction or fantasy fiction, or if you build up a vocabulary from NHK news easy, you'll be in a position to understand the regular news and other non-fiction. And for the most part, the flow of the language and the patterns words are used in is much the same from one to another, although there are quirks that are specific to particular kinds of material.
** note for beginners, I really do encourage sticking to one sort of material. If it's fiction, pick a long series, preferably one available in translation for comparison. If it's the news, then pick one section at first. If it's language exchange, just one or two 'pen pals', or make a small group of lang-8 friends and post friends-only, etc. Once you feel like one sort of Japanese is smooth sailing then you can (probably should) branch to something a little more challenging. If you try to do everything at once you really will need an enormous vocabulary all at once.

Words are easily countable, and of course, someone that has the 10k words is in a position to understand more than someone who has 5k words. But if someone knows only a simple English equivalent for each of 10k words, do they really know more than someone who knows 5k words and understands multiple idiomatic meanings, set phrases, and common usages for each them? That's harder to measure, but just as real a factor in understanding, and it takes time to get a feel for those patterns.

DON'T

1. Ignore the basics. Its boring, but those textbooks/grammar points/vocab/kanji are important.

2. Ignore Fun. By this I mean always do *something* fun in Japanese, regardless of your level. Consider it a study break, or a study reward. I like anime and the occasional visual novel.

3. Be overly orderly. You don't have to learn things one at a time. Be brave and tackle vocab/grammar/kanji/listening/speaking all at once. Start right away on everything, as they reinforce each other.

4. Rush. Everyone is in a hurry to read/speak Japanese. Learning a language takes a lot of rigorous (read: RIGOROUS) study. Keep your study load manageable and be thorough.

5. Turn your nose up at classes. Its cool to say classes suck, but it's wrong. Anyone who's been to a language school, or an intensive course, can tell you classes teach you a lot. That said, do your research before attending.

6. Make it complicated. People think they are smarter than they are (myself included). No need to remake the wheel. Find a course that seems suitable, and finish it (FINISH). Bonus pts if you find a course that includes audio/drills/exercises.

7. Avoid the big leap. If you've been good about 1-6, you'll get to a point where your fun time will make a lot more sense in Japanese. As you become less reliant on translations, don't be afraid to go 100% Japanese to test the waters.