I have 2 options on my plate: convince my dad to co-sign student loans to transfer to a 4-year college, or just join the Air Force. I'd like to just have normal college life at this point in time, but there are lots of opportunities resulting from service in the AF. They do have bases in Japan, so I'd express my interest to get stationed there, but what do you guys think? Am I being dillusional? Or maybe it's a good way to make me independent and knowledgeable. Open to criticisms, suggestions, and what not.

I went to a recruiter today and talked to him, so that's why I'm asking this question now. I'm 21 (22 in July) and I live with my dad, so I feel I'm way too dependent. On top of that I'd need a co-signer, which is why this alternative popped into my head. Also, my friend is going to boot camp in a few months which peaked my interest.

Are you prepared to fight in a war?

"See the world!" has been a recruiting tool for generations. Seeing the world from the inside of a foxhole isn't as pleasant as the posters make out. The air force is a little different, but unless you're prepared to be sent to a war zone and risk being killed/captured, it's probably not for you. Don't fall for the trap of thinking that joining in a non-combat role means you'll be safe.

I know there are members of the military on these boards and they may have a different view, just be aware of what you may be signing up for.

When you join the military you will be sent wherever the military needs you. You could do your entire stint in the AF without ever seeing Japan or being stationed abroad.

And don't let the recruiter lie to you about guaranteed placements. I joined the army at 18 with a contract saying "Germany" on it and ended up in Afghanistan and Kuwait for most of my military life. "Needs of the DoD" they said.

That said, the AF could open up lots of opportunities for you. I assume you have an AA degree and that could get you a nice enlistment bonus. Just don't think it's a guaranteed Japan trip.

Oh and you could find yourself in a situation where you are being shot at or will have to kill other people. Think that over before you sign your papers.

Dude, don't sign up for the military, period. If you don't like living with your dad, try to find a better job or go back to school to prepare you for something that is actually worth you time. Like becoming a doctor to help people, a teacher to help kids, go into some kind of non-profit organization that helps people. Killing people is not worth your time. I know that's not entirely what the military is about, but then again, for america it is.

Do you really want to kill someone? Do you really want to fix a plane that is going to kill someone? Do you really want to work on computers at a base that will be used to kill someone?

if you said yes to any of these then you might want to go talk to a police officer and ask him to check you in a cell or something because I would feel nervous being around you if I met you in real life. I'm not angry at you but I am pleading with you not to join the military.

Come on dude, the military? Have you met any of those guys and gals? Most of them are scum. Not all of them, but most.

bizarrojosh Wrote:try to find a better job or go back to school to prepare you for something that is actually worth you time.

I was assuming that you have a job. If you don't hold a job, convince your dad by all means to get those student loans!

my brother (18) just joined the marines and is going off to college soon. Do you think if he got his japanese up to snuff that the military would send him to Japan over other places or does just nobody care?

Don't join the military. I recommend watching the Canadian mini-series "War" (which, I admit, I've only seen some of.)

I know that "Anybody's Son Will Do", part of the series, is on Youtube in its entirety. I can't post the link because I'm at work. That one's about what boot camp is--essentially brain washing people into thinking that killing is okay.

My favorite poem about war has always been Wilfred Owen's Dulce et Decorum Est. Owen was a soldier in World War 1 and was killed in battle.

"Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori"

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori - Sweet and fitting it is to die for one's country.

Wow, been awhile since I made a post here but your recent posts seem to mirror my own life quite a bit, TheVinster. I'm in a similar situation right now. I'm 23 and I recently dropped out of college, not for good, but more just because I've been in school for the wrong thing way too long. I've hated college ever since I started going on and off for the last 5 years because I realized what my passion in life was too late... so I wasted 4 years in school just scraping by in classes I could care less about.

Unfortunately, I was an idiot my first year and went to a very expensive private school, and slowly accumulated more debt in the years that followed. I realized years too late that the only thing I want to go school for is Japanese/East Asian studies/Chinese or something, I'm kinda stuck. No schools near me even offer Asian type courses and the very few that do are just too expensive I think, considering my ridiculous loan debt as it is.

I live with my parents as well, and they basically said I have to enlist or start doing well in school to stay home. I kept thinking going back to school for Japanese or something was impossible, so I went to a recruiter about a month ago. I'm actually supposed to take my official asvab and the MEPS physical in 2 weeks or so. I never wanted to join the military; I'm 90% sure I'll loathe it, despite how many opportunities it can bring and how good it looks on a resume. I just felt like I had no choice, ya know?

To make things even more interesting, I just went to Asia (Taiwan and Hong Kong) for my first time last week. Ironically it wasn't even Japan, but I fell in love (though I knew I would already), and now, I'm having serious 2nd thoughts about enlisting ;( I'm trying to explore any other opportunities but my time is almost up.

On the topic of being sent abroad, I don't know enough to give a real answer. My impression is that it's not the most common thing. My recruiters tell me that the DoD jobs are few and far between, so even if you ace the asvab and can do any job, they aren't going to send you somewhere if that place has no need for the job. My bro-in-law just got his orders, and he's going to be stationed at Ft. Bragg, NC. I believe he listed Germany, Italy, and somewhere else as his 3 stations to go abroad. I'll also second the guy who said recruiters spout a lot of crap. I've only visited my recruiting office 4 times, and after speaking to 3 different guys, they'll say just about anything to get you to sign the dotted line. Be weary.

Of course, Army isn't Air Force, so it's all moot I guess. Just throwing in my experience so far. Good luck with whatever you set out to do, bud.

Sorry for the long life story >_<

Hmm, 'defence' forces, probably kill myself before ever joining them.
Why not the Peace Corps or some other form of constructive volunteering?
Or would you rather become a subservient lackey sent overseas to do the killing for other people?

Knowing Japanese will not get you stationed in Japan unless your job is translation. You can list preferences but where you go is really out of your control sometimes.

If you like studying languages, look into becoming a translator. The military will pick the language based on testing results and needs but you might just luck out and get Japanese.

There is a great essay written by retired Marine LTC and author Dave Grossman on the role and psychological character of the those who serve. It is called “On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs.” I highly recommend that you read it, and the rest of Grossman's work. His manuscript “On Killing” is particularly good.

Military service in general may or may not be the right fit for you. There are plenty of good reasons to join the armed forces. Despite what those ads on TV and the recruiter told you, seeing the world, getting an education, self-development and independence are not the right reasons. To protect and serve is. Are you a sheepdog? That's a question for you to answer. And, this is key: there is no wrong choice. This is the prime time of your life. Is your calling to protect? Then sign up, train hard, and become the fiercest protector of life and liberty. If not, then don't waste years of your life on a childish whim.

Yeah, because the modern US military is all about 'protecting life and liberty'.
I'm sure the Vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghanis, Palestinians etc would agree with you.

thecite Wrote:Yeah, because the modern US military is all about 'protecting life and liberty'.
I'm sure the Vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghanis, Palestinians etc would agree with you.

I think what Mafried meant was "protecting the life and liberty of the american people at the expense of others. To protect the life of our citizens while taking advantage of other countries and to protect the liberty of the american people while simultaneously taking it away from everyone not American."

Did I mention the US military anywhere in my post? No, I didn't. My advice would be the same whether we're talking about the US Air Force or the Republican Guard. Let's leave politics out of this.

Kinda hard to leave politics out of a highly political matter.

In western democracies, militaries are highly de-politicized entities. They are USED for political ends, yes: the military is a tool to be used by a democratically elected, civilian government. If the military questioned that authority, then who is really in control? And how thin become the defenses protecting the country from a coup?

The commander in chief is a civilian--a politician elected by the people. If you take issue with what the US military has been ordered to do (as I do, you should know), then you should take those grievances to those who issued the orders: the civilian government and (to a much lesser extant) the people who complacently voted them in.

But ultimately it is a matter of scope. An individual that chooses to join up for the right reasons presumably believes that the military is a required tool of his or her nation, and puts faith in the process to ensure that the orders he or she is given are just and right*. The person that joins up willingly becomes a tool of the elected civilian government. They recognize the need for a military that serves the elected officials without questioning their authority. If you want to be the one making the political choices, then become a politician. If you want to second-guess political choices, then become a talking head on TV. Or vote.

* With the implicit caveat that soldiers should make sure the moment-to-moment orders (most notably, who to shoot and when) obey international and institutional rules such as no killing non-hostile civilians or POWs, rules of engagement, etc.

thecite Wrote:Kinda hard to leave politics out of a highly political matter.

^^

You're right, the military can be used for the right reasons, e.g. defence against encroachment, UN peacekeeping interventions etc. Unfortunately, it's generally used for the wrong reasons these days, which reflects the terrible state of 'democracy' in the west more than anything.

Right, soldiers are unquestioning lackeys. They carry out orders with the hope or belief that what they're doing is right, 'serving their country' or whatever. The Germans under Nazi ruled Germany were the same. If you want to become an unquestioning servant to power, so be it. Unfortunately, you may have to take part in atrocities and go against morality.

Only an uneducated child would compare the soldiers of a democratic nation's military to the soldiers of Nazi Germany.

thecite Wrote:Yeah, because the modern US military is all about 'protecting life and liberty'.
I'm sure the Vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghanis, Palestinians etc would agree with you.

You can add the Okinawans onto this list I hope I live to see the end of 安保.

Only an idiot would ignore the parallels.
The nation's leader pursues their own interests, ignores public opinion (so much for democracy), the media helps to shape public opinion, before you know it you're invading a foreign country to international outcry.

thecite Wrote:You're right, the military can be used for the right reasons, e.g. defence against encroachment, UN peacekeeping interventions etc. Unfortunately, it's generally used for the wrong reasons these days, which reflects the terrible state of 'democracy' in the west more than anything.

Right, soldiers are unquestioning lackeys. They carry out orders with the hope or belief that what they're doing is right, 'serving their country' or whatever. The Germans under Nazi ruled Germany were the same. If you want to become an unquestioning servant to power, so be it. Unfortunately, you may have to take part in atrocities and go against morality.

I echo Womacks23's sentiment, and point out that in my last post I explicitly mentioned the need for soldiers to obey international agreements on conflict, and that this takes priority over superior orders. The same holds true today in the militaries of all democratic countries that I know of. The understanding of the need for this check came directly from the war trials at Nuremberg. So I'm not sure how your comment addresses the point that I was making.

But seeing as we've hit Godwin's law, even in a tangentially appropriate context, this thread will likely spiral out of control. It is supposed to be abut TheVinster's decision to join or not to join his nation's air force. I suggest that we take our discussion elsewhere if you still wish to continue it as a civil, reasoned debate.

Bush is Hitler and the 1st Cavalry Division is the SS.

Wooo

I seriously hope you actually learn things about history when you make it to college.

I said 'parallels'. I'm not an idiot trying to say the US is a fascist autocracy, but it's far from being democratic in many respects.
The military can be abused by power anywhere, and has been dramatically in the US since the end of WWII.

thecite Wrote:Right, soldiers are unquestioning lackeys. They carry out orders with the hope or belief that what they're doing is right, 'serving their country' or whatever. The Germans under Nazi ruled Germany were the same. If you want to become an unquestioning servant to power, so be it. Unfortunately, you may have to take part in atrocities and go against morality.

That's what you said. If you want, I can recommend some good books.

http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Third-Re...0671728687

Start with that.