So you would disagree that German soldiers believed they were serving their country, for the good of the homeland etc? It doesn't really matter, they submitted themselves to the military in pursuit of an extremely immoral cause, which was my point.

Womacks23 Wrote:Bush is Hitler and the 1st Cavalry Division is the SS.

Wooo

I seriously hope you actually learn things about history when you make it to college.

We know you were in the military since you said it yourself so there's obviously that history that shapes your view on military. and maybe thecite was being a bit broad in his paralles, but you don't have to be childish yourself to make a point. Plus, being patronizing is just bad taste.

The soliders in the US military and the Nazi German military can easily be compared without being an uneducated child. To say they are as different as apples and oranges is honestly just a way for people to say "I would never be like the NAZIS!!! THEY WERE EVIL. We're not evil, we're good folk."

Maybe the motivations were different for the soldiers back then but in many ways things haven't changed at all.

first a racial tirade against egypt, and now hyper-ultra-pro-americanism... what's next womack23.

Sorry, I was out of line with that "idiot" call, but it isn't particularly nice being called an "uneducated child."

Anyone making a comparison of Nazi German soldiers and US soldiers is utterly ignorant of what the soldiers of Nazi Germany did.

vinniram Wrote:first a racial tirade against egypt, and now hyper-ultra-pro-americanism... what's next womack23.

I didn't give a racial tirade against Egypt. I posted the results of a pew org. poll. How is that racist?

you took an american poll and treated it as 100% absolutely the truth, and proceeded to judge an entire race of people, characterizing them as of the "middle ages".

thecite Wrote:So you would disagree that German soldiers believed they were serving their country, for the good of the homeland etc? It doesn't really matter, they submitted themselves to the military in pursuit of an extremely immoral cause, which was my point.

US soldiers do not blindly "submit" themselves to causes like the soldiers of Nazi Germany did.

Each soldier is held responsible for their actions and is expected to follow the laws of war. Those that break these rules are punished. For example, US soldiers are bound by law to not "follow" illegal orders.

Does this work out perfectly? Not exactly, but you get the idea.

Womacks23 Wrote:Anyone making a comparison of Nazi German soldiers and US soldiers is utterly ignorant of what the soldiers of Nazi Germany did.

note to self, do not feed the raged troll.

vinniram Wrote:you took an american poll and treated it as 100% absolutely the truth, and proceeded to judge an entire race of people, characterizing them as of the "middle ages".

The poll is American. So what? A respected American polling company hired a bunch of Egyptians to go out and ask other Egyptians what they think about their society. The results are still accurate.

And yes, putting people to death for not following your religion is an example of a people stuck in the "middle ages".

I didn't say "US and Nazi soldiers are exactly the same!" I made a specific point: Nazi soldiers submitted themselves to the military in pursuit of an immoral cause.
US soldiers did this in Vietnam, they're doing it in Iraq and Afghanistan, if you want to go back a bit in history, they did this in the Philippine–American War as well.

bizarrojosh Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:Anyone making a comparison of Nazi German soldiers and US soldiers is utterly ignorant of what the soldiers of Nazi Germany did.

note to self, do not feed the raged troll.

I think I'm going to take your advice and step out of this stupidity.

Meh, this argument's gone off course. (It is taking a Godwin's Law type turn now)
At any rate, I need to go now.

The morality of fighting to protect South Vietnam from North Vietnam is not exactly the same as the things Nazi Germany did.

So, I can't really agree with the point you are trying to make.

On the smaller individual soldier scale, you can't make any comparison. US soldiers are legally required to follow the laws of war. Nazi soldiers were legally required to violate them. Big difference there.

bizarrojosh Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:Bush is Hitler and the 1st Cavalry Division is the SS.

Wooo

I seriously hope you actually learn things about history when you make it to college.

We know you were in the military since you said it yourself so there's obviously that history that shapes your view on military. and maybe thecite was being a bit broad in his paralles, but you don't have to be childish yourself to make a point. Plus, being patronizing is just bad taste.

The soliders in the US military and the Nazi German military can easily be compared without being an uneducated child. To say they are as different as apples and oranges is honestly just a way for people to say "I would never be like the NAZIS!!! THEY WERE EVIL. We're not evil, we're good folk."

Maybe the motivations were different for the soldiers back then but in many ways things haven't changed at all.

In that case, I was never in the military and never plan to be. The closest I ever came was considering running off and joining the Légion étrangère in college. Can I speak without being thinly accused of indoctrination?

Womacks23 was unquestionably as rude as he was terse. But he is also right. It is juvenile to oversimplify an extraordinarily complex situation into simple black and white right/wrong, left/right politics. It is also a sign of ignorance to equate such radically different situations as WW2 Nazi aggression and US preemptive wars.

I am a student of military history, and for a while was quite interested in that period. Why do you think I learnt German and initially studied Japanese? I've since become more interested in philosophy of warriorship, and specifically Japan's history of military/martial philosophy (Miyamoto Musashi and Takuan Soho, among others, and the living traditions of 古流武術).

Anyway, my point is that I know a bit about that period, probably more than most here (although Womacks23 seems knowledgeable, if terse). If you want to compare the Waffen-SS (and it was the Waffen-SS that was responsible for the most egregious crimes) to something more current, try one of the many military dictatorships and armed separatists in central Africa over the last few decades. The Waffen-SS and the modern US military are so different that any attempt at direct comparison amounts to hand-wavy argumentation. There are no relevant parallels.

Anyway, I said earlier we should take this discussion elsewhere. I'll make this my last post.


TheVinster, best of luck to you, and I hope things turn out well whatever you decide.

TheVinster Wrote:I have 2 options on my plate: convince my dad to co-sign student loans to transfer to a 4-year college, or just join the Air Force. I'd like to just have normal college life at this point in time, but there are lots of opportunities resulting from service in the AF. They do have bases in Japan, so I'd express my interest to get stationed there, but what do you guys think? Am I being dillusional? Or maybe it's a good way to make me independent and knowledgeable. Open to criticisms, suggestions, and what not.

I went to a recruiter today and talked to him, so that's why I'm asking this question now. I'm 21 (22 in July) and I live with my dad, so I feel I'm way too dependent. On top of that I'd need a co-signer, which is why this alternative popped into my head. Also, my friend is going to boot camp in a few months which peaked my interest.

Well, the discussion above is a bit off topic... but, from everything i know about you, i'd say don't do it! You want to go to Japan!!! Yeah, joining the airforce could let you learn skills, and everything would be sorted for you, but as others have pointed out, you don't get to choose where you go, and you may end up um, dead.

imo, much better to stick with your university plan & try to get a year abroad / spend holidays in Japan!!! Once you finish your degree, even if you can't find a proper job in Japan to start with, you can still move there and teach english til you get settled out there. The same thing can't be said of getting released from the airforce...

i know it feels rubbish to depend on your parents when your grownup, (i am again at 26... i wasn't even when i was 16! lol) but honestly, it's your best choice for now, i think...

did you decide on your university & course btw?

I just looked up Godwin's Law. Amazing.


on topic:

Don't join the US military. Get your dad to co-sign for student loans. Otherwise you'll be in just as much denial as other members of this board who were formerly in the military trying to justify their actions by making sure it's clear that US soldiers are not as bad as Nazi's.

Sorry thecite, you lost the debate because of this quote

thecite Wrote:You're right, the military can be used for the right reasons, e.g. defence against encroachment, UN peacekeeping interventions etc. Unfortunately, it's generally used for the wrong reasons these days, which reflects the terrible state of 'democracy' in the west more than anything.

Right, soldiers are unquestioning lackeys. They carry out orders with the hope or belief that what they're doing is right, 'serving their country' or whatever. [bold] The Germans under Nazi ruled Germany were the same. [/bold] If you want to become an unquestioning servant to power, so be it. Unfortunately, you may have to take part in atrocities and go against morality.

from the wiki about Godwin's Law

"there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made [comparing something to Nazi's or Hitler], the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress."

Best Law EVER.

It was an unnecessary piece of rhetoric.

IceCream Wrote:did you decide on your university & course btw?

I think I've narrowed it to 2 universities, and 2 fields of study: health or business. I think maybe leaning towards business, because the health field may be difficult for me to transfer into. If I went into business... don't know what I'd do from there. As a side-note, I now have tutoring with 2 Japanese families thanks to my old Japanese teacher. Maybe I can talk to the wives' husbands to get me a nice business job, haha.

Well...my advice would be

...don't support an institution which supports killing other people & war just because of your selfish need for more opportunities

It's up to you though...

Why not go as a teacher for ECC or Aeon or something? At least then you know you're going to Japan.

TheVinster Wrote:I think I've narrowed it to 2 universities, and 2 fields of study: health or business. I think maybe leaning towards business, because the health field may be difficult for me to transfer into. If I went into business... don't know what I'd do from there.

I'm not familiar with the requirements to study health in the US but would be something like working as a paramedic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramedics_...ted_States) be for you? Quite a few med-students in Germany have licenses for paramedics (there are different training-degrees so you can start training while still in high school, but the higher degrees ask for internships and taking classes at specialized schools). I don't know how the students manage it, but some are actually working as paramedics on the side (weekend mostly I presume) to earn some additional money.
I'd think that it would be possible to first train and work as a paramedic and if you really like the work that you can later go to med-school. Though as I said I have no idea about the systems in the US.

Also taking a year off to teach English in Japan (or Korea, Taiwan, China...) might actually be not such a bad idea.

I strongly encourage you not to join the military. I strongly encourage anyone not to join the military. Go to university, take the loans. And would you want to learn business? Really? Because it is really boring and really doctrine-based. Whereas health is science based, progressive, and you'd be making a real difference in your work. I'd rather look back on my life and be proud of a medical career saving lives, than a boring career making powerpoint presentations or a pathetic career killing people in the name of whichever politician wanted what foreign asset.

[ファブリス]

Renewable energies, environment, I heard there are great opportunities there considering where we are heading.

But yeah, I agree that joining the air force, no matter how likely you are or aren't to go to war, in order to get opportunities abroad, is misguided.