Yeah but who says those posts are only for the initial participants? If she wanted a fresh start I don't see why she had to delete nearly 2000 posts... she could have easily just made a new nick and we wouldn't know otherwise. I just don't understand.

Like how many of us just solve our problems by googling for an answer or doing a forum search, and finding great threads >_>

Any of those posts could have been valuable information to any number of people down the track; to delete them all for your own personal satisfaction just seems somewhat selfish to me.

@aphasiac

Same here, motivating me as well. I always read whatever she writes as it helps me a lot.

Well, I think it's pretty obvious that many of her posts were useful, and could continue to be useful in some ways for people who come to this forum. But that doesn't necesarily mean that she shouldn't be allowed to delete them.

I'm kind of a big Youtube fan. I remember, for example, a guy named suttsteve, who basically posted videos about his life. He always said odd things, and being a strange a-sexual 40 year old he got kind of a cult fan base. But one day he decided it just wasn't worth it and deleted all his videos. Now, I really liked watching his videos, so it was providing me with something. But he definitely had the right to take them down. The fact that I enjoyed them had nothing to do with it. The fact that I and many others had commented on his videos didn't really make a difference either.

Sure Icecream's post were useful for this forum, but it's basically a case of indivdual rights vs. group rights. Does Icecream have the right to delete those videos because she wrote them? Or does the group have a right to deny her those deletions in the interests of the forum? Seems to me that any amount of argument won't solve the problem. If you don't believe me, go read a lot of books about ethics, and then come back and tell me that it's not just about personal preference. But, just by personal preference, I would side with individual rights and say that she had the right to delete her posts.

Youtube videos and forum posts are different though, posts are part of a collection of posts, its not solely your own work. So I think its not crazy to say that its a detriment to others work if its connected too. I guess you can go "ra ra ra I have a right", but it does seem selfish. (In Western culture its always "I have the right so <blank>")

I think videos revealing the intimate details of your life and personality are somewhat different to posts pertaining to academia.

It's not a question of ownership. It's a question of responsibility. Deleting her umpteen thousand posts was rash and irresponsible. Even if for the sole fact that I can no longer say, "use the search function" because doing so would result in finding some very discombobulated topics. I agree that the ability to wipe your account is a counter productive, and, as this topic shows, a waste of time.

What the hell does starting over have to do with erasing thousands of posts on websites most people you meet will never visit? She's said nothing so intimate and personal that would warrant this. Damn, I was hoping she got hacked or something because I'm starting to get heated.

aphasiac Wrote:I'm strongly in favour of removing the delete/edit feature. Most forums disallow because it's open to so much abuse, and creates a culture where posters don't have to take responsibility for what they're writing.

If you want to retract something you have said, make a follow up post and say why; you shouldn't just be allowed to change history and pretend you never said it!

The delete feature I understand, but the edit feature? Removing that is a step too far. In fact, you edited this post I'm quoting

kazelee Wrote:It's not a question of ownership. It's a question of responsibility. Deleting her umpteen thousand posts was rash and irresponsible. Even if for the sole fact that I can no longer say, "use the search function" because doing so would result in finding some very discombobulated topics. I agree that the ability to wipe your account is a counter productive, and, as this topic shows, a waste of time.

What the hell does starting over have to do with erasing thousands of posts on websites most people you meet will never visit? She's said nothing so intimate and personal that would warrant this. Damn, I was hoping she got hacked or something because I'm starting to get heated.

No, it is an issue of ownership. You say that she didn't post anything intimate or personal, and apparently that's where you set your own bar for what's worth deleting. But you're not Icecream, you don't get to decide what's important to her.

I saw the posts about how Youtube is different from this forum coming from a mile away (I considered doing a 4chan-esc 'inb4' at the end, but decided that doing anything 4chan-esc is a bad idea). It doesn't change my original point--it's still an issue of group rights vs individual rights. You're argument basically here is 'but in this case group rights matter more.' That's what's being debated here.

So you have different values and opinions about this than Icecream. Why am I supposed to care about that? It's completely subjective opinion.

vinniram Wrote:The delete feature I understand, but the edit feature? Removing that is a step too far. In fact, you edited this post I'm quoting

Haha, niiiiice.

Usually when I edit posts, it's because I realize that I could have explained myself more clearly. Seems useful to me.

It's different for a reason though.

If two people were in a debate discussing a topic using youtube videos to debate and exchange chats, and people were following it, then it would be pretty irresponsible for one of the guys to just randomly delete all his videos a year later.

I'm not against IceCream or anything, but it would have been nice if she had at LEAST let people know that she was going to do that so we didn't lose all her quality posts and work.

It's like if a friend consistently comes and brings you a snack, not because you asked for it but out of the goodness of their heart. But then randomly one day they just don't show up and you have no snack and you're wondering what happened as well as being snackless. Also your friend goes into your stomach and takes all the previous snacks you ate and throws them in the garbage.

It's a little rude honestly! but I guess it is all opinion.

Tzadeck Wrote:No, it is an issue of ownership. You say that she didn't post anything intimate or personal, and apparently that's where you set your own bar for what's worth deleting. But you're not Icecream, you don't get to decide what's important to her.

I saw the posts about how Youtube is different from this forum coming from a mile away (I considered doing a 4chan-esc 'inb4' at the end, but decided that doing anything 4chan-esc is a bad idea). It doesn't change my original point--it's still an issue of group rights vs individual rights. You're argument basically here is 'but in this case group rights matter more.' That's what's being debated here.

So you have different values and opinions about this than Icecream. Why am I supposed to care about that? It's completely subjective opinion.

No see I'm not even arguing a "right". In the west people always go ra ra ra move out of the way because I have the right! Where as in say Japan, or any country, it is "sure i have the right, but I am considerate and don't enforce my right when its a detriment to others and its not necessary"

Its not rights, its consideration.

Well, I'm not saying it wasn't bad for the forum, it definitely was. She has a lot of helpful posts. It could also very well be rude, irresponsible, whatever else.

I think it's about whether she has the right to be rude or irresponsible with things she's created herself.

In other words, I think that for rudeness and lack of consideration you can be mad at her and say so. But it doesn't mean you need to take the right to do what she did away.

I think preventing what she did should be enforced by community culture, not forum law.

Tzadeck Wrote:So you have different values and opinions about this than Icecream. Why am I supposed to care about that? It's completely subjective opinion.

Step off! I never asked that you care. In fact my comment wasn't directed at you. The subject of what you own and don't own is up to the admin. He just disabled the feature for a reason. That case is closed.

My qualm lies in the fact that this is akin to selling all your shit, moving away, and telling no one. Irresponsible!

kazelee Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:So you have different values and opinions about this than Icecream. Why am I supposed to care about that? It's completely subjective opinion.

Step off! I never asked that you care. In fact my comment wasn't directed at you. The subject of what you own and don't own is up to the admin. He just disabled the feature for a reason. That case is closed.

My qualm lies in the fact that this is akin to selling all your shit, moving away, and telling no one. Irresponsible!

But also like, it seems she cared about the forum, so why would she do something like this on a pure whim? I mean, she also probably found the forum useful right? >_>

kazelee Wrote:The subject of what you own and don't own is up to the admin. He just disabled the feature for a reason. That case is closed.

The case isn't closed. If an admin makes a decision, I think it's completely appropriate for members of the community to tell the admin if they disagree with it, and maybe he can reconsider. I like Fabrice, he's the best admin I know of--it's not like I'm being rude to him.

Edit: BTW, I didn't mean 'Why am I supposed to care about that' in the rude way, although I know that question is often used like that. It wasn't mean to be rhetorical--if there's a reason you think it goes beyond subjective opinion, let me know.

Tzadeck Wrote:Well, I'm not saying it wasn't bad for the forum, it definitely was. She has a lot of helpful posts. It could also very well be rude, irresponsible, whatever else.

I think it's about whether she has the right to be rude or irresponsible with things she's created herself.

Meh. The rights you have when you choose to participate in a forum aren't the same as the rights you have just by existing. We all used to have the right to delete posts on a whim, now we don't, maybe we will again. Clearly, what she did was within her rights because she was able to do it. Still a dick move, though.

Tzadeck Wrote:It wasn't mean to be rhetorical--if there's a reason you think it goes beyond subjective opinion, let me know.

Never said it did. I've stated this has gotten me heated. Pure subjectivity. Perhaps in a month or so I'll be able to discuss this on an esoteric level. Forgive me for being short.

Ice Cream seems to be a very nice person and I have enjoyed reading her posts, but she is also very naive. She didn't really think about the consequences of her actions very well.
It is not really a subjective opinion to believe starting more than 30 threads and then deleting the opening statement in each, along with all follow-up posts is wrong.
It was incredibly inconsiderate and one day when she thinks about it carefully, she will return to apologize. If it had been any other user on this forum, they would be getting completely roasted by everyone.

This whole discussion thread almost makes me jealous.
If I disappeared from RevTK, would anyone even care?............ :-p

I scream. You scream. We all scream for IceCream......lol.....

chamcham Wrote:This whole discussion thread almost makes me jealous.
If I disappeared from RevTK, would anyone even care?............ :-p

No. No one ever notices whether I'm around or not. I don't contribute much though, and never even close to the level of IceCream.

This goes further in confirming my theory that the people best suited to learning Japanese are a little bit obsessive. There's some drive in people I've met, similar to IceCream, that I just don't have.

What she did just doesn't add up for me, it seems totally irrational. How long did it take to delete all those posts? Not once did she think, "this is crazy?" and stop? That's a level of dedication akin to OCD. I'd give up trying to delete all my posts after about 20.

I'm hoping there's another piece to the story that will make things a bit clearer.

Wow. I'm gone for a few days, and when I come back it's anarchy everywhere.
I can't believe these four pages.
All of Icecream's posts deleted? But this was like a platinum mine!!! This is a grim event for Japanese learning. All that knowledge which could have benefited future generations, gone for ever...
I just don't understand...

If it's you that did that, I respect your choice though I resent it (it's a loss, and it's also very irresponsible, but okay, let's not dwell on the past...).
If someone else did that, I hope one of your relatives or friends noticed, and you're alright, and they'll get the bastard.
Damn... I still can't believe it...

vinniram Wrote:The delete feature I understand, but the edit feature? Removing that is a step too far. In fact, you edited this post I'm quoting

I edit most of my posts to remove spelling and grammar mistakes! If the edit feature was removed, I'd probably just take more time and post more careful!

See, it's a bad thing as it encourages me to lazy...bad bad bad!

*Edited for lack of delete option