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Good understanding, bad production abilities.

#1
I went to Japan for 1.5 months and got a lot better at understanding what I hear.

However I cannot for the life of me reproduce back any of that stuff. I am terrible at speaking.

Thoughts? Help?
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#2
when you say you cannot reproduce, do you mean from memory? or you referring to have conversations and not producing the right words to say? Or just in general?
Edited: 2011-02-06, 10:07 pm
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#3
Yeah, are you referring to production or speaking or both and in what ways?
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#4
I've always thought of production as speaking and writing...

Obviously there's real practice like a lang exchange / skype and lang-8.

Pimsleur helped me get faster at producing the basic stuff at the beginning. Also speaking exercises from Minna no Nihongo.
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#5
In terms of shadowing, you can get a better control of what you say(right tone,etc). There are exercises out there to get a better pronunciation. (There was this good course online,free of course. It's really good for gaining a solid pronunciation). Just need to find it...
Edited: 2011-02-06, 10:35 pm
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#6
You understand what is being said to you but cannot respond with your own words. I also have this problem all the time.

The solution is more practice. Find a conversation partner somewhere and just chat and practice.
Edited: 2011-02-06, 10:54 pm
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#7
For me, when I hit 2 years of study - right about the time I started living with Japanese (not in Japan though) my production went from being afraid to open my mouth and ask someone to pass me something to talking non-stop for hours on end over the course of about 4 months.

I think the key is first building a very very solid foundation of understanding the language grammatically and most importantly, building a large vocabulary. Also exposing yourself to it so much that it begins to stick. After that, practice will start to activate your knowledge and your production ability will sky-rocket.

At least that was my experience!

I guess my point is, you have to give your brain a huge corpus of Japanese which it can draw from naturally while you speak. Otherwise, you've got nothing to go on!!
Edited: 2011-02-07, 6:14 am
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#8
mezbup Wrote:For me, when I hit 2 years of study - right about the time I started living with Japanese (not in Japan though) my production went from being afraid to open my mouth and ask someone to pass me something to talking non-stop for hours on end over the course of about 4 months.

I think the key is first building a very very solid foundation of understanding the language grammatically and most importantly, building a large vocabulary. Also exposing yourself to it so much that it begins to stick. After that, practice will start to activate your knowledge and your production ability will sky-rocket.

At least that was my experience!

I guess my point is, you have to give your brain a huge corpus of Japanese which it can draw from naturally while you speak. Otherwise, you've got nothing to go on!!
Makes sense to me. I can agree with this.
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#9
Usually anglophones do have a terribly annoying accent
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#10
mezbup Wrote:For me, when I hit 2 years of study - right about the time I started living with Japanese (not in Japan though) my production went from being afraid to open my mouth and ask someone to pass me something to talking non-stop for hours on end over the course of about 4 months.

I think the key is first building a very very solid foundation of understanding the language grammatically and most importantly, building a large vocabulary. Also exposing yourself to it so much that it begins to stick. After that, practice will start to activate your knowledge and your production ability will sky-rocket.

At least that was my experience!

I guess my point is, you have to give your brain a huge corpus of Japanese which it can draw from naturally while you speak. Otherwise, you've got nothing to go on!!
Mezbup is never wrong Smile

Seriously

Never
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#11
Speaking is a skill like any other, and we improve when we do more of it. Therefore, talking in the language as much as you can, right from the start, is the most efficient way to become fluent. And you don't need to acquire a large vocabulary first to do so, either.

In our mother tongues, we use the vocabulary we have to express what we need, even if better, more accurate words may be available but unknown to us. Similary, it's important to learn to make the most of the words you have in Japanese, right from the beginning. This is not about producing perfect sentences, but about acquiring the ability to string words together into meaningful units in a flash. This requires a lot of split-second planning -- planning sounds, intonation, word order, word choice, conjugation, etc. -- that only practice can allow.

While there is nothing we can say that will make you fluent all of a sudden, it's time you changed your language habits and put yourself in an optimal position to acquire the ease you want in speaking Japanese.

I recommend you set aside a certain period of time everyday, preferably several times a day, dedicated to speaking Japanese. No one to talk to? Talk to yourself. Imagine scenarios, create dialogues, make up conversations, etc, but all orally and orally only. You need to set up a regimen of internal monologue where you can take time to create the sentences you need to express yourself. You must move from passive listening and writing to oral production on the fly. If putting a sentence together takes time, that's fine, you HAVE time. Once you have the sentence or phrase you need, keep repeating it until you can say it with relative ease and without painful pauses. It's not about learning that specific phrase, it's about feeling sentences that flow, giving your brain an idea of the kind of flow you want. Then play with the sentence. Change a word. Change the emphasis. Change the tense. Play with it. It may not be grammatically correct, but it doesn't matter -- you need to create and feel the flow of spoken, meaningful utterances. Of course, if you can use sentences you've heard as a starting point, either from real life experiences or from TV, podcasts, etc., all the better, but you shouldn't let that deter you from speaking.

If you can have a quiet, private place where talking out loud is okay, all the better. You should even use gesture, or express yourself with your whole body because these kinesthetic clues help the brain. Otherwise, you can mutter to yourself, whether it's in the car, in the shower, walking in the park, biking, etc. Think about your daily life. Express the things you need to explain your day, your worries, your ideas.

Unless you live in a setting where you are constantly required to express yourself in the language, internal monologue is the key to fluent speech production.
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#12
AlexandreC Wrote:Speaking is a skill like any other, and we improve when we do more of it. Therefore, talking in the language as much as you can, right from the start, is the most efficient way to become fluent. And you don't need to acquire a large vocabulary first to do so, either.

In our mother tongues, we use the vocabulary we have to express what we need, even if better, more accurate words may be available but unknown to us. Similary, it's important to learn to make the most of the words you have in Japanese, right from the beginning. This is not about producing perfect sentences, but about acquiring the ability to string words together into meaningful units in a flash. This requires a lot of split-second planning -- planning sounds, intonation, word order, word choice, conjugation, etc. -- that only practice can allow.

While there is nothing we can say that will make you fluent all of a sudden, it's time you changed your language habits and put yourself in an optimal position to acquire the ease you want in speaking Japanese.

I recommend you set aside a certain period of time everyday, preferably several times a day, dedicated to speaking Japanese. No one to talk to? Talk to yourself. Imagine scenarios, create dialogues, make up conversations, etc, but all orally and orally only. You need to set up a regimen of internal monologue where you can take time to create the sentences you need to express yourself. You must move from passive listening and writing to oral production on the fly. If putting a sentence together takes time, that's fine, you HAVE time. Once you have the sentence or phrase you need, keep repeating it until you can say it with relative ease and without painful pauses. It's not about learning that specific phrase, it's about feeling sentences that flow, giving your brain an idea of the kind of flow you want. Then play with the sentence. Change a word. Change the emphasis. Change the tense. Play with it. It may not be grammatically correct, but it doesn't matter -- you need to create and feel the flow of spoken, meaningful utterances. Of course, if you can use sentences you've heard as a starting point, either from real life experiences or from TV, podcasts, etc., all the better, but you shouldn't let that deter you from speaking.

If you can have a quiet, private place where talking out loud is okay, all the better. You should even use gesture, or express yourself with your whole body because these kinesthetic clues help the brain. Otherwise, you can mutter to yourself, whether it's in the car, in the shower, walking in the park, biking, etc. Think about your daily life. Express the things you need to explain your day, your worries, your ideas.

Unless you live in a setting where you are constantly required to express yourself in the language, internal monologue is the key to fluent speech production.
That's some solid advice there, I'll definitely follow it. When I think about myself speaking in English, I don't really use overly difficult vocab when speaking. And when I do have to use such words for presentations/labs,etc. I usual have time to prepare and if I don't understand something (certain vocabulary words, that are chemistry/Biology related), then I just ask what does it mean. I definitely feel one should have a solid level of listening/understanding then speaking will be so much easier to improve. But none the less, that's solid advice.
Edited: 2011-02-11, 1:32 pm
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#13
you need to practice speaking in order to speak. =)

from my own experience with writing, there are a lot of kanji compounds i can read. but using them in a sentence on my own might be difficult. it's like seeing complex english vocabulary, we might know what it is when we read it or hear it, but it's a different story when we try to use it ourselves.

taking it a little further, handwriting kanji compounds from scratch for me is extremely difficult. but i can type it out and choose the right one.

sometimes i play shiritori by myself to remember words verbally.
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