I'm reading a book, sadly only available through a pedagogy/linguistics course, by linguist John C. Maher. He talks about factors influencing second language learning, and what might be important to how well learners do. Likewise, he points out factors which do not influence second language learning so much. I thought it might be fun to point out some of them, and see if you agree or have had experiences which confirm them. Or, of course, if you disagree!

● Age seems to be a factor, but contrary to popular opinion, in the favor of adults. Adults generally learn all the relevant language skills faster than children. Older children generally learn faster than younger children. However, adult learners rarely achieve complete fluency in all skills of a language. Often they can do some of the four skills dramatically better or worse than others.

● The most successful language learners are not the learners who find the language easy to pick up. Rather, successul learners are the ones who have perservered through much frustration and trial and error.

● Learners who percieve themselves to be less proficient then other learners or students they interact with often are apt to give up and fail to learn the language.

● The personality type that probably makes for the best learners are those who feel low anxiety, high motivation, and have good self-esteem and self-confidence.

● Integrative motivation is more important than instrumental motivation. Meaning, if you like the people who speak a language, you are more likely to be successful in learning the language. If you are not so interested in the people in culture, but need the language for a practical reason or a job, you are less likely to succeed.

● Girls in western countries have been shown to do better than boys at learning second languages (probably due to environmental and motivational differences).

● Method does not account for language learning success. Different teaching methods, or different materials, don't have a tendancy to promote different results. (It's a bit more complicated this this--having a structured method matters, but which structured method you use doesn't seem to matter so much)

● IQ does not seem to be a strong factor in determining the ability to learn a second language.

● Those who have systematically studied a second language before will usually have an easier time learning an additional one.

That's it! He actually cites studies (some studies and points may seem to disagree with each other to some degree), but I'm too lazy to write them all out.

I relate to a lot of this, but it's getting late where i am. So I'll post it tomorrow

Hehe, you forgot "the firm desire to win!" If anything, I think the main reason I keep chugging along (except that I am stubborn and believe that if you keep trying hard at something you will eventually succeed) is the desire to beat Japanese and be this super-speaker (much like a super saiyain) that can do anything with the language whenever I want to. I really feel that the ability to be and stay determined has a massive affect on people's learning levels and their success in the end.

My own experience backs all of that up, except for the girls part. The successful adult 2nd language learners I've known have mostly been male, but that might be selection bias.

I'm curious, what's the name of the book? I know it'll be hard to track down, but I'd like to find a copy. I have long been skeptical of 2nd language acquisition theory since most of what I've read about the prevailing theories is contrary to my own experience (and, I would argue, common sense in many cases). But this linguist seems to have his head screwed on straight.. I would love to read about it in more detail.

He totally forgot 'having access to a forum of fellow learners who discuss study methods, share tips and encourage each other'.

Tzadeck Wrote:● Method does not account for language learning success. Different teaching methods, or different materials, don't have a tendancy to promote different results. (It's a bit more complicated this this--having a structured method matters, but which structured method you use doesn't seem to matter so much)

Could you detail this a little bit more please? :) What does "structured method" mean here? I often see people learning more easily simply by changing the way they learn, sometimes by giving up on methods that did work for me. Maybe it is due to external factors, like being more motivated by the method, but in this case you can't say that the method/material used doesn't really matter...
I'm curious now!

astendra Wrote:He totally forgot 'having access to a forum of fellow learners who discuss study methods, share tips and encourage each other'.

This is THE FACTOR, at least for me. I tried to study japanese three or four years ago but "I was lost, alone, in the desert". After learning kana, I stopped because I could not find a way to study kanji the way I wanted. A method (RTK), tools (ANKI) and other people experience (this site) were the things I was looking for. Thank you very much :-)

mafried Wrote:My own experience backs all of that up, except for the girls part. The successful adult 2nd language learners I've known have mostly been male, but that might be selection bias.

I'm curious, what's the name of the book? I know it'll be hard to track down, but I'd like to find a copy. I have long been skeptical of 2nd language acquisition theory since most of what I've read about the prevailing theories is contrary to my own experience (and, I would argue, common sense in many cases). But this linguist seems to have his head screwed on straight.. I would love to read about it in more detail.

Well from the people I know, I'm the only one who still keeps learning Japanese. The other people around me keep saying "when I have more time". But that's never going to happen sadly. I don't really have fellow language learners to follow/talk to, other than this forum.

The other people around me just keep saying the same thing. So it really annoys me at times. I guess it's harder to say I won't learn anything, then saying I will do it later.

ta12121, that's in line with 99% of my experience as well. Most of the successful Japanese language learners I met were in Japan, for example. Selection bias . I've taken courses in a number of different languages over the years, and only one person that I know of, other than I, has gone on to have any kind of success in the language (a woman, now that I think about it...).

Most would-be language learners I know in person (this forum is full of exceptions) say this "when I have more time" nonsense as well. These people never acquire an appreciable ability in the language at all.

mafried Wrote:ta12121, that's in line with 99% of my experience as well. Most of the successful Japanese language learners I met were in Japan, for example. Selection bias . I've taken courses in a number of different languages over the years, and only one person that I know of, other than I, has gone on to have any kind of success in the language (a woman, now that I think about it...).

Most would-be language learners I know in person (this forum is full of exceptions) say this "when I have more time" nonsense as well. These people never acquire an appreciable ability in the language at all.

True, very true. I know a friend who has been studying for a long while, now that I think about it 3-4years. And now I'm way past him in only 1 year+. He said how did you do that? I said, it's simply. I just put in the time everyday. I think another reason why people fail is, they don't stick with something for the long-run. My friend went from anki, to smart.fm and now going back to anki. Plus he doesn't maintain his reps,etc.

This tells me, people just don't become successful in fully learning a language due to not maintaining and sustaining something for the long-run.

I know the only reason why I've gotten this far is due to putting time into, a bit too much at sometimes. But hey, there's nothing wrong with that

Well, language learning is a pretty huge commitment, but I think that on the whole, such a commitment is both underestimated and misunderstood. When you manage to do something people don't understand, they often like to sweep it under the rug with excuses instead of trying to learn from it. This might be somewhat of a self-perpetuating aspect of society. You know, the nail that sticks out...

In the end, those who do commit and succeed often seem to be branded as either geniuses or weirdos, while the real reasons for their success are largely ignored. I think the biggest reason as such is maintaining curiosity and interest in what you do.

Even so, the reason I'm here on this forum writing this post is nothing more than a total fluke. As such, I can't really mind whatever other people do to spend their lives anymore, I just get on with my own business. Still, it's kind of sad to me that so many people seem not to have the privilege to sincerely enjoy putting effort into something that they love.

astendra Wrote:Even so, the reason I'm here on this forum writing this post is nothing more than a total fluke. As such, I can't really mind whatever other people do to spend their lives anymore, I just get on with my own business. Still, it's kind of sad to me that so many people seem not to have the privilege to sincerely enjoy putting effort into something that they love.

What comes out is that they just don't love it enough...

jettyke Wrote:

astendra Wrote:Even so, the reason I'm here on this forum writing this post is nothing more than a total fluke. As such, I can't really mind whatever other people do to spend their lives anymore, I just get on with my own business. Still, it's kind of sad to me that so many people seem not to have the privilege to sincerely enjoy putting effort into something that they love.

What comes out is that they just don't love it enough...

Can't agree anymore. There has to be come sort of connection. Either they like it/love it. They are interested in the language in general,the people. I think there has to be some sort of connection.

They can even say " OMG, I love Japanese SO MUCH!!!"

But if in the next few months after saying that they still haven't done anything enough to amount to the interest they said they had, it means that they didn't love japanese so much after all.

How much you spend time on certain things shows how much you care about them.

So if you Really love something ---->FULL SPEED AHEAD

jettyke Wrote:

astendra Wrote:Even so, the reason I'm here on this forum writing this post is nothing more than a total fluke. As such, I can't really mind whatever other people do to spend their lives anymore, I just get on with my own business. Still, it's kind of sad to me that so many people seem not to have the privilege to sincerely enjoy putting effort into something that they love.

What comes out is that they just don't love it enough...

I wish it were that simple. Unfortunately I know many people who have the desire, the free time, and the willpower to succeed. But they don't because unfortunately these people are in many ways followers, not leaders, and are incapable of charting their own course. If they were only willing to push themselves, research and structure their own studies, and be introspective about their progress, methods and study habits, they would succeed. But often they don't understand that is what they need to do, it is these skills which they lack, and for that reason they fail.

When my friends (often fellow martial artists) ask me how to learn Japanese, and I talk to them about motivation, study habits, and introspection, things go about as well you would expect. It would be easier if it were as simple as "they just don't love it enough," but the truth is they do love it, they have a desire and a *need* to learn it, but fail anyway because IMO they ignore or do not understand this meta-advice.

I wish it were that simple, because then I wouldn't feel so bad for them.

I'm not sonsure I agree with the "not loving it enough" theory. Yes, people tend to avoid things they don't like and more effort into things they do... But there are other priorities too. Do I love reading about operating systems, computer architecture, and probability? Not a whole lot, but I sure spend a lot of time doing it: I'm a student.

I don't necessarily love Japanese, or studying it so much. But I do. I do like some things in japan, and have an indescribable desire to go back... But that doesn't necessarily keep me going forward. I complain about japan more than I praise it, to be honest... But I'm still drawn back -- and that's how my studying works too. I don't love it, but it just happens.

mafried Wrote:

jettyke Wrote:

astendra Wrote:Even so, the reason I'm here on this forum writing this post is nothing more than a total fluke. As such, I can't really mind whatever other people do to spend their lives anymore, I just get on with my own business. Still, it's kind of sad to me that so many people seem not to have the privilege to sincerely enjoy putting effort into something that they love.

What comes out is that they just don't love it enough...

I wish it were that simple. Unfortunately I know many people who have the desire, the free time, and the willpower to succeed. But they don't because unfortunately these people are in many ways followers, not leaders, and are incapable of charting their own course. If they were only willing to push themselves, research and structure their own studies, and be introspective about their progress, methods and study habits, they would succeed. But often they don't understand that is what they need to do, it is these skills which they lack, and for that reason they fail.

When my friends (often fellow martial artists) ask me how to learn Japanese, and I talk to them about motivation, study habits, and introspection, things go about as well you would expect. It would be easier if it were as simple as "they just don't love it enough," but the truth is they do love it, they have a desire and a *need* to learn it, but fail anyway because IMO they ignore or do not understand this meta-advice.

I wish it were that simple, because then I wouldn't feel so bad for them.

I think it's hard because, it''s hard to maintain for some people. Sometimes it's hard to figure out why people don't do it, but some of which I noticed are: enjoyment,motivation,reason,time and what it takes. Some people are lazy, heck I call myself lazy all the time. But for some odd reason, when it's learning Japanese. I feel I should always be doing more. This only is going to get me far, it's like an addiction (not a bad one). Always keep coming back for mre, even if it's not enough to fill me up (learning)

There's a big difference between having an interest in Japanese and having an interest in studying Japanese. Even if you like Japanese and have things you want to do with Japanese, that doesn't necessary mean you have the motivation and interest to put in the hours, weeks, months, and years necessary to develop the ability necessary to put your Japanese to actual use.

I think the people who succeed do so partly because they enjoy studying Japanese, and not just Japanese.

ta12121 Wrote:

mafried Wrote:

jettyke Wrote:What comes out is that they just don't love it enough...

I wish it were that simple. Unfortunately I know many people who have the desire, the free time, and the willpower to succeed. But they don't because unfortunately these people are in many ways followers, not leaders, and are incapable of charting their own course. If they were only willing to push themselves, research and structure their own studies, and be introspective about their progress, methods and study habits, they would succeed. But often they don't understand that is what they need to do, it is these skills which they lack, and for that reason they fail.

When my friends (often fellow martial artists) ask me how to learn Japanese, and I talk to them about motivation, study habits, and introspection, things go about as well you would expect. It would be easier if it were as simple as "they just don't love it enough," but the truth is they do love it, they have a desire and a *need* to learn it, but fail anyway because IMO they ignore or do not understand this meta-advice.

I wish it were that simple, because then I wouldn't feel so bad for them.

I think it's hard because, it''s hard to maintain for some people. Sometimes it's hard to figure out why people don't do it, but some of which I noticed are: enjoyment,motivation,reason,time and what it takes. Some people are lazy, heck I call myself lazy all the time. But for some odd reason, when it's learning Japanese. I feel I should always be doing more. This only is going to get me far, it's like an addiction (not a bad one). Always keep coming back for mre, even if it's not enough to fill me up (learning)

When I think about it...is it something about you being addicted to Japanese or more like you being addicted to the things you allow yourself to do in Japanese?!

I think this kind of study in inherently flawed. It doesn't matter to me if most people in my sex/age/country/IQ group fail; what matters to me is that some succeed. How do they do it? That's the question I would like answered.

iSoron Wrote:I think this kind of study in inherently flawed. It doesn't matter to me if most people in my sex/age/country/IQ group fail; what matters to me is that some succeed. How do they do it? That's the question I would like answered.

I've never had any doubts about whether I'll succeed since discovering/starting doing AJATT(&replacing everything with Japanese as much as I could), and hooking up with Japanese friends and other people who learn Japanese.

Now Japanese is so deep that keeping it out of my life is at least as much hard as it was to put it into my life in the first place. Probably harder, because I've seen a bit of what it has to offer to me.

I've not succeeded yet, but I've definitely have gone on steadily since I first started doing RTK on this site about 1,5 years ago.

yudantaiteki Wrote:There's a big difference between having an interest in Japanese and having an interest in studying Japanese. Even if you like Japanese and have things you want to do with Japanese, that doesn't necessary mean you have the motivation and interest to put in the hours, weeks, months, and years necessary to develop the ability necessary to put your Japanese to actual use.

I think the people who succeed do so partly because they enjoy studying Japanese, and not just Japanese.

Hmm. I can definitely agree with that. I do like to learn Japanese and learn more stuff everyday. In the beginning phases, I didn't like srsing or kanji. Due to it being so much to handle (how will I learn all this,etc?) But, I eventually figured out through experience, that the srs will make my life easier (in terms of kanji,reading,etc)

iSoron Wrote:I think this kind of study in inherently flawed. It doesn't matter to me if most people in my sex/age/country/IQ group fail; what matters to me is that some succeed. How do they do it? That's the question I would like answered.

Well said.

Asriel Wrote:I don't necessarily love Japanese, or studying it so much. But I do. I do like some things in japan, and have an indescribable desire to go back... But that doesn't necessarily keep me going forward. I complain about japan more than I praise it, to be honest... But I'm still drawn back -- and that's how my studying works too. I don't love it, but it just happens.

Oh yes, that's exactly how I feel about it!

jettyke Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

mafried Wrote:I wish it were that simple. Unfortunately I know many people who have the desire, the free time, and the willpower to succeed. But they don't because unfortunately these people are in many ways followers, not leaders, and are incapable of charting their own course. If they were only willing to push themselves, research and structure their own studies, and be introspective about their progress, methods and study habits, they would succeed. But often they don't understand that is what they need to do, it is these skills which they lack, and for that reason they fail.

When my friends (often fellow martial artists) ask me how to learn Japanese, and I talk to them about motivation, study habits, and introspection, things go about as well you would expect. It would be easier if it were as simple as "they just don't love it enough," but the truth is they do love it, they have a desire and a *need* to learn it, but fail anyway because IMO they ignore or do not understand this meta-advice.

I wish it were that simple, because then I wouldn't feel so bad for them.

I think it's hard because, it''s hard to maintain for some people. Sometimes it's hard to figure out why people don't do it, but some of which I noticed are: enjoyment,motivation,reason,time and what it takes. Some people are lazy, heck I call myself lazy all the time. But for some odd reason, when it's learning Japanese. I feel I should always be doing more. This only is going to get me far, it's like an addiction (not a bad one). Always keep coming back for mre, even if it's not enough to fill me up (learning)

When I think about it...is it something about you being addicted to Japanese or more like you being addicted to the things you allow yourself to do in Japanese?!

Hmmm, something about me being addicted to Japanese. Not sure how to answer that even. I've gotten so far, that if I stopped now. It will all be for nothing.I doubt I could stop now even if I tried. I believe in the future, there will be day when I'm using it to it's fullest. Or at least I hope so.

What attracts me to the language is the kanji(writing system),the media, how it sounds, girls(yes I will put that one up, although it's not a priority like other people I know). When I think about it in depth, I do enjoy studying it, it's become easier and easier as I get farther in the language. I still experiment around with the learning as always. Plus I'm into buying books in Japanese,media,electronics(to further my learning). I'm noticing everything I do, I'm incorporating Japanese into it.