Hello,

I've heard a lot about different grammar books, some good for self study, some better for classrooms..
what's easy to understand and thorough? Kanzen Mastaa (heard it's better for classroom), Minna No Nihongo (also better for classroom), Genki, Japanese in mangaland, Japanese the Manga Way? I need something for self-study, so exercises where I need another person isn't practical...

I have Japanese for Busy People but i haven't gone through it yet though I bought it a couple of years ago.

I should edit the title and say grammar/textbook... or maybe they're the same thing?

I'd say Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Grammar helped me a lot, but textbooks don't work for me so...

tae kim's guide to japanese grammar.
it's FREE!

I shall always recommend: Japanese the Manga Way and Dictionaries of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Japanese Grammar (with the 8555 sentence Anki deck) as the core grammar books, supplemented by Google. ;p

In terms of your question, I think JMW is easiest and for reference, DOJG.

Bokusenou Wrote:I'd say Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Grammar

^
this

I used the Genki textbook series followed by UNICOM JLPT grammar books.

Genki is my favorite textbook. The series is just pure quality and is worth every penny.

I also have the three part Dictionary of () Japanese Grammar series. I can't think of anything more through with regards to explaining Japanese grammar in English. But to be completely honest, I never really used them and the books just sit on my shelf collecting dust.

They are good reference books to keep around though. I just never really incorporated them into my active study routines.

what are your goals? Is it for work? Hobby? JLPT? love? all would probably be best served by a unique approach

Any book that is more or less ordered from simple to complex and contains bucket loads of example sentences of natural Japanese with accompanying translations is good to learn from as a beginner. The point is it should be more or less easy enough to notice the word correspondences and understand how the grammar is functioning with little or limited explanation just by reading the sentences. If the book is well designed, you should simply be able to read the sentences while covering the english, and then check if you are interpreting it right or not. Use what you learn to keep moving forward in the book and keep quizzing yourself on the sentences. If the book is well organised this should allow you to move forward at a good pace while also getting constant revision of already learned grammar patterns and repeat exposure to vocabulary (which you will eventually learn). Workbook style exercises, lengthy grammar explanations and so on are not strictly necessary imo. If it comes with an accompanying cd of audio that is a definite plus. Or you might want to try starting with something like pimsleur, teach yourself or try an online system like lingq.

tokyostyle Wrote:(All textbooks suck equally at teaching speaking so you'll need to make some friends for that.)

*cough* Japanese: The Spoken Language *cough*

Next time I visit my parents I'm going to dig out my old copy of JSL and burn it.

LOL, JSL is mainly good for classes, and even if you take a class with it, the book has a high learning curve, so I heard teachers need to be trained how to teach it (mine wasn't, and most of my classmates didn't know/learn how to speak outside of set dialogues, and only spoke with an awful gaijin accent), the grammar notes were detailed though, they reminded me of an English version of Niwasaburoo's guide, but a lot of the stuff in them I had figured out by seeing them in context, a while ago.

I don't think any book can "teach" you speaking, but Shadowing (I forget the publisher) and 日本語生中継 will help you prepare somewhat.

I +1 the A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar recommendation. It's not enough on its own though, unless you have some sort of superpower that prevents you from being bored and demotivated. If you get some sort of coursebook, or workbook like Kanzen Master, you can work through it in a structured manner while referencing ADBJG for the sort of details that only that book seems to include, then review the sentences in the premade deck.

nest0r Wrote:I shall always recommend: Japanese the Manga Way and Dictionaries of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Japanese Grammar

this

Having read most of "Japanese the Manga Way" now, I would say that it's a good book for a complete beginner to learn about grammar points. I think it's really good at explaining these points (the first chapter is brilliant---all of a sudden I can construct Japanese sentences, lol). It's easy to pick up things from it, and it's fun to read (it's got images from manga, after all). However, what it lacks is more sample sentences for each grammar point. So I guess this is where "Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" comes in, and I'll be buying this book next.

JSL will not teach you to speak without teachers. The book was designed for a class and isn't as effective without it.

Thanks for all the input..
My basic goal is to just learn the language, so I can speak, read and listen. It's just a personal hobby. It'd be great to speak, read, listen fluently but that's too far ahead for me right now... and I just want to start somewhere. I feel like I could sentence mine for starters but I worry about not picking up on the different verb tenses and making heads and tails of the grammar points...
What's more effective? going a structured route or doing sentence mining with a reference book? maybe doing both?
what about Rosetta Stone?

Sounds like I"ll look into Japanese the Manga Way and a Dictionary of Japanese grammar

Rosetta Stone isn't a very useful resource, and is mostly just a gimmick to make obscene amounts of money by selling to casual language learners. It sounds to me like your best bet is a structured route: Start with an elementary level textbook, and work from there. Genki I is a great starting point, and there are plenty of other beginning level textbooks that are okay as well. I personally don't suggest the sentence mining method at all, let alone for complete beginners, but others will naturally disagree with me.

If by 'structured route' you mean externally imposed regimentation I am against that, and I think textbooks and classrooms are superfluous for the most part. I found JMW's pre-deconstructed sentences the perfect foundation for things like Core 2000 (which is a resource you could use in a variety of ways), and it's not merely a 'beginner' textbook as it incorporates points also used in the Advanced volume of DOJG. What I value most in JMW is not the explanations, but how it gave me a 'meta' framework for deconstructing sentences (which, once you understand this, makes thinking in terms of 'exercises' and 'vocabulary decks' as separate from some strange definition of 'sentence mining' rather silly. Sadly many people don't get this).

One way you might use the DOJG would be to select interesting-looking entries and referencing their relevant sentences in the shared Anki deck, grading those sentences based on whether you grasped the target grammar point.

You might look into Nukemarine's 'beginner' guide, by the way, located in a forum thread here.

nest0r Wrote:One way you might use the DOJG would be to select interesting-looking entries and referencing their relevant sentences in the shared Anki deck, grading those sentences based on whether you grasped the target grammar point.

You might look into Nukemarine's 'beginner' guide, by the way, located in a forum thread here.

I was really just looking for a grammar/textbook to start with and couldn't decide which one with so many recommended ones out there. I'm so grateful for all the advice from everyone.

What's a shared anki deck? Are you referring to a deck someone has already created and I can download?

And is core 2000 really a free program on the smart.fm site? tried it out a bit, but wondered if the whole version is on the web or if I've got to purchase something eventually....

Sorry, didn't mean to let myself get sidetracked by people dissing others' preferred materials and methods rather than simply suggesting their own.

As for shared decks, yes, when you open Anki you can use the menu to download shared plugins and decks. I believe there's a good one that has the Core 2000 and 6000 words and sentences + audio called 'kore' that a forum member 'cangy' made. People study these cards in different ways. Likewise a deck containing the sentences from Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar.

Print out a few sheets of Japanese sentences and sleep on them.

tokyostyle Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:If by 'structured route' you mean externally imposed regimentation I am against that, and I think textbooks and classrooms are superfluous for the most part.

I believe I share you dislike for useless classroom learning, but I find the additional information contained in traditional textbooks to be superior to just about anything else. I find the workbooks and other "exercises" in those books to be fairly useless. To paraphrase Khatzu's advice on textbooks: ignore the vocab lists and focus on the dialogs, grammar explanations, and especially the grammar sentences. Add a healthy amount of example sentences for each grammar pattern in your SRS so that you can review them.

Personally I see way too many trivial grammar questions on this forum to think the toss out the textbook method is actually efficient for people.

I see. The way I look at it, the rare occasion I haven't seen or can't find something in JMW or DOJG, and if Google and sundry other reference books somehow fail me, I might use the textbook as a reference, but so far that hasn't happened yet. So what I was saying was not 'toss out the textbook' so much as 'the textbook is a bloated reference you may never need, rather than a comprehensive primary source'. ;p

TheVinster Wrote:Print out a few sheets of Japanese sentences and sleep on them.

2D love! I never pegged you as such an otaku.

Well textbooks aren't meant for reference, they're meant for learning.

For me the minimalist Tae Kim plus figure-it-out-as-you-go KO2001 works fine, but if you want verbosity any one of the many series of Japanese textbooks published in English would do. Just keep it in good condition so you can sell it when you're done and buy a real reference book.

yudantaiteki Wrote:JSL will not teach you to speak without teachers. The book was designed for a class and isn't as effective without it.

Yeah, I didn't say otherwise. How could any book teach you to speak without speaking? The hard part of speaking is not knowing sentence/grammar forms, it's about being able to use those forms quickly and in the proper context. In other words, it's much more about practicing something rather than learning something. (Though, of course, first you need to know the forms, but that's the easy part)