Yonosa Wrote:This does not even touch the issues of automation replacing the working class and stripping them of their purchasing power. The issues of financially motivated crime(which is over 95% of all crime), "profiting" from problems without fixing them, the waste of ownership, the cyclical consumption... I could go on and on... A monetary system was good once, it really was, now it's outdated, don't connect yourself to ideas in that way, the flaws of the system are easily verifiable if you make a commitment to scientific analysis and try to not become emotional about the issues involved. I invite you to make a more thorough analysis with scientific standards of evidence to back the benefits. I hope you think about these issues, I will not reply, nor read this post from this point, watch the film and join the movement!

It doesn't touch on those things because that's not what I was talking about. The way you talk about this makes it sound like you think you're enlightened. Nobody is connecting themselves to the idea of a monetary system. It's in place, and changing it to achieve desirable results takes a lot less effort than trying to abolish the system altogether. I don't know what you think are scientific standards of evidence, but I'd be interested to see how you could possibly associate them with the spurious pseudo-stats you give.

Yonosa Wrote:EDit: "thorough analysis with scientific standards of evidence to back the benefits." this might be unclear, what I mean is don't just repeat supposed benefits of a monetary system, reanalyze each issue yourself and at all the evidence to look and see if the claim is true. There are many common assertions in our current culture because the general person's understanding is behind that of the latest science, that's why you still hear people saying things like "Human's use only 10% of their brain", or that "evolution is a stepping tool and we are "most evolved" animal". I mean it's no wonder people who are just used to repeating things don't know how to make a basic scientific analysis.

Got a mirror?

Yonosa Wrote:Only analysis with scientific standards of evidence provide answers, "economics" has no evidence, it's an abstraction wake the #%)* and stop supporting a system that makes you a debt slave, alows a billion to starve, destroys our planets, I could go on and on.

The system doesn't make people a debt slave, people's greed and stupidity does. Those things would exist without money. Billions starve for complex historical, social, natural, economic, political and economic reasons (among others). A resource-based-economy doesn't get rid of starving people.

And as for automation replacing the working class, who cares? So we move to a more automated society, in a generation the working class doesn't exist and the human population makes a necessary decrease (which has to happen under any social system), role specialisation increases as automation increases. That doesn't mean povery or suffering. It's you who is stuck in the last century - it's like you're looking at the world today and failing to see the splendour and magnificent possibilities of everything humanity has created. Focusing only on the problems, you don't see that millions of people already devote their lives to making real change, every day, working hard to improve conditions for everyone. Any time spent associating with this stupid Zeitgeist movement is wasting time which could be productively used to make real change.

Also, I agree with everything Tzadeck has said.

[ファブリス]

To be honest I thought of posting it here about a week ago when I heard about the new movie, but I don't want to be alone posting "alternative" topics once in a while.

So thanks for posting it Yonosa, and don't get too caught up in this.

It's good to share some of these things, and let people watch who want to watch it, and pass who want to pass.

With that said, I (again) heartily recommend the story of Walt Disney's City of the Future, EPCOT, it is very, very cool.

Wikipedia Wrote:Epcot is an acronym of Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow, a utopian city of the future planned by Walt Disney. Disney's original vision of EPCOT was for a model community, home to twenty thousand residents, which would be a test bed for city planning and organization.

We're very cynical since the nineties, but we need to start dreaming big again



@Blahah: Bla blah blah bla blaahh, bla blahah.

"and is here to stay"
I bet you're wrong, look around. The world is about to "default", it is lunacy.


Fabrice, we are on the same page haha. Yeah, I mean it's a shame I just want to spread it everywhere. But oh don't worry I coordinate (along with a few others) my local chapter and we are expecting around 150 people for March 12th Z-day this year, and this is our first Z-day event. This movement is all about talking to those people in your community, we coordinate the larger picture online but, the actions at the local chapters. I hate how people act like this has a precedent, this movement has no precedent, the has never been anything like it before. Also, Zeitgeist Moving Forward was released in 60 countries, in 31 languages, in 295 cities and 341 venues with sold out crowds in attendance. It has been noted as the largest non-profit independent film release in history. The forth film is going to at least double these numbers, actually there is an aim for another non documentary like film about the future cities to be released worldwide at most theaters, this is unprecedented so it's a shame that some people are not able to understand that because of their limited associations and the victimization their have suffered on the part of their cultures...

Yonosa Wrote:"and is here to stay"
I bet you're wrong, look around. The world is about to "default", it is lunacy.

That's fine, I'll happily take you up on that bet. A common feature of self-labeled activists is that they think there's a crisis when there really isn't. In 5 years, we'll meet in this thread and you can pay me in money. If you win I'll pay you in 'resources'.

ファブリス Wrote:@Blahah: Bla blah blah bla blaahh, bla blahah. :wink:

lol, I'm starting to regret choosing this handle!

Dude blah blah, this is perfect for you;
"Never underestimate the ability of the human mind to resist useful information. "

I mean these ideas aren't even that non-mainstream anymore, George Carlin was one of the most popular comedians and he's been talking about it forever. But hey just keep Blah blah-ing. I don't have time for it in all honesty.

But once more good to see some support for spreading skepticism Fabrice.

One more for ya Blah blah;
"The trick is to condition people so thoroughly into the established value systems that any thought of an alternative is inherently ruled out without critical examination."
That's what you're doing bro. Don't think you're saying anything original back to me, dude I am a coordinator for this group I deal with people like you daily, and we still grow, and grow, we're adding about 5 members a month(I live in a small town right now, so it's pretty nice, specially considering the city chapters are pulling 20 to 30 new members per meeting regularly), and we only do 2 meets a month right now, with about 40 people coming out each meeting who aren't even a part of the group. Withing those 40 there are 6 to 10 of you, and I get to answer their questions, it's a chore, I'm not doing it here too.

“I like to think
(it has to be!)
of a cybernetic ecology
where we are free of our labors
and joined back to nature,
returned to our mammal brothers and sisters,
and all watched over
by machines of loving grace.”

Psychedelic, man!

Yonosa Wrote:One more for ya Blah blah;

My moniker is Blahah. It says it right there to the left of every single one of my posts.

Yonosa Wrote:The trick is to condition people so thoroughly into the established value systems that any thought of an alternative is inherently ruled out without critical examination."
That's what you're doing bro. Don't think you're saying anything original back to me, dude I am a coordinator for this group I deal with people like you daily, and we still grow, and grow, we're adding about 5 members a month(I live in a small town right now, so it's pretty nice, specially considering the city chapters are pulling 20 to 30 new members per meeting regularly), and we only do 2 meets a month right now, with about 40 people coming out each meeting who aren't even a part of the group. Withing those 40 there are 6 to 10 of you, and I get to answer their questions, it's a chore, I'm not doing it here too.

That's not what I'm doing. I critically analyse everything I ever talk about, I don't jump on the bandwagon of every conspiracy theorising grassroots association for the mentally retarded or ever respond to someone's point in a debate by deliberately misspeaking their name or not bothering to actually read their points. I'm glad you don't have time to respond here, perhaps someone more courteous will have a chance to say something interesting.

Blahah Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:One more for ya Blah blah;

My moniker is Blahah. It says it right there to the left of every single one of my posts.

That's not what I'm doing. I critically analyse everything I ever talk about, I don't jump on the bandwagon of every conspiracy theorising grassroots association for the mentally retarded or ever respond to someone's point in a debate by deliberately misspeaking their name or not bothering to actually read their points. I'm glad you don't have time to respond here, perhaps someone more courteous will have a chance to say something interesting.

Just give up, Blahahahaha. Didn't you read Yonosa's posts in the Money Masters thread?

Deep breath. And it's gone. You're right, I slipped in a turd, I just need to wipe it off and walk away.

You've been kind of vicious as well, that's not the Blahah I know! What would your pregnant girlfriend say?

@Fabrice

Have you heard of Fordlandia? http://www.amazon.com/Fordlandia-Henry-F...0805082360

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e...%C3%A2ndia

Also, Soleri's Arcosanti: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e.../Arcosanti

All of which (including Walt Disney on showcasing 'American free enterprise') reminds me of Richard Barbrook's book Imaginary Futures: http://www.imaginaryfutures.net/book/

"He demonstrates how business and ideological leaders put forth a carefully orchestrated vision of an imaginary future, where robots would do the washing up, go to the office and think for us... "

Disney and Avery should've gotten together: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3jbvr_...shortfilms

nest0r Wrote:You've been kind of vicious as well, that's not the Blahah I know! What would your pregnant girlfriend say?

She's not really pregnant, it turns out she just ate a piglet. True, this is like the climate change thread all over again.

Sorry Yonosa, I know you know not what you do, I didn't mean to take it out on you, you not knowing what, that is, you do, and telling others that you do.

I don't think anyone here said that TVP is Marxist, but it certainly is socialist/ technocratic. The fact that it's to some degree socialist isn't a bad thing, it's the negative stigma and lack of understanding regarding the term 'socialism' that is harmful.

Blahah > Yes, you can make some theoretical argument about how capitalism *could* be sustainable, unfortunately this isn't how it plays out in reality.

Blahah Wrote:Capitalism represents humanity. Maybe not individuals, but as a whole it represents how humans (and all other organisms) have always lived - they take what is within their capabilities to get, and they continue to do so until some limiting factor controls resource extraction.

It sounds like you're trying to argue that capitalism is 'human nature' or 'natural' or something, which is nonsense. This is a system that has developed historically and can be changed historically. Just let me ask you: did Native Americans have a human nature? How about Europeans up until around 600 years ago?

I can't take these style of videos seriously, if there's one about this made in a fair documentary or discussion style I'd be interested..

Blahah Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:You've been kind of vicious as well, that's not the Blahah I know! What would your pregnant girlfriend say?

She's not really pregnant, it turns out she just ate a piglet.

Typical Westerner, getting fat off the precious resources of nature while your fellow human beings die of starvation.

[ファブリス]

@Yonosa: I think you got a little caught up in this. I did tease Blahah but without meaning disrespect. I thought you'd leave it at that.

Back to the movie.. watched 2/3rds or so. Gotta sleep.

Don't know what to make of it yet. The first part was ok but halfway through I felt it's going downhill. I'm sure we'll have something closer to a "resource based economy" and a more "equalitarian" system.. but I don't like the way it was presented.

Yonosa Wrote:Fabrice, we are on the same page haha. Yeah, I mean it's a shame I just want to spread it everywhere. But oh don't worry I coordinate (along with a few others) my local chapter and we are expecting around 150 people for March 12th Z-day this year, and this is our first Z-day event.

Just for the record, I'm not part of the "Zeitgeist movement" whatever that is, and I have no idea what the "local chapter" means or what you guys are trying to do.

I don't see myself joining any movement now or ever for the rest of my life. I like to see people being motivated to think outside of the box but I've grown up enough to learn that there's no use in trying to convert others.

@nestoR: thanks, never heard about those.

thecite Wrote:Even if you accept that some sort of capitalist system is the most effective way to achieve technological innovation, we simply cannot carry on the way we're going.

This is my problem with these debates: they all assume the premise that we should optimize for "the greater good", a weakly defined and highly subjective concept that can easily be (and has been) used for great acts of destruction and death. In fact, most of the attrocities of history have been comitted by people who believed themselves to be doing the right thing according to this greater good premise (often with a side of "the ends justify the means").

There are other premises to work from though, such as never denying an individual's right to life. That is, not that you must feed/save everyone, but that you shouldn't interfere with their own actions to sustain their life. For example, this implies the right to dispose of the fruits of one's labor however they wish. If life and property are so protected, then the only legal exchange is 100% voluntary trade. Thus under this premise, 100% laissez faire capitalism is the only moral economic system. [Note: this is nothing like the so called "mixed" systems actually seen in the world, where the government still retains the right to decide who you can and can't trade with, controls pricing, taxes your income, etc out of it's "for the greater good" premise.]

Maybe it _is_ the case that without super robots that decide everything for us according to some utiliterian theory we'll all die of resource starvation or otherwise screw ourselves over, then again, some people rather risk death than lose their liberties (see I, Robot) and figure we'll eventually all lose to the heat death of the universe (entropy is a harsh mistress).

Firstly, I don't really see what relevance your post has in regards to that particular statement of mine; that was a simple observation on the sustainability of our current system.
I'm not advocating some definite system; I don't think that's practical or realistic. I'm outlining some general guidelines that I think society should move towards, such as having the control of resources in the hands of the people, and a far more democratic society, perhaps one in which representation is constantly moved around the people and becomes a normal part of all people's lives. I do agree with some of the things that TVP proposes, such as using technology to eliminate the need for humans to perform menial jobs, but this is barely an idea unique to TVP, it's been around for ages.

So called 'laissez-faire' capitalism is a complete disaster; there's good reason the government intervenes in our supposedly free-market system, and that's because without it the system would break down in 5 minutes.

thecite Wrote:Firstly, I don't really see what relevance your post has in regards to that particular statement of mine; that was a simple observation on the sustainability of our current system.
I'm not advocating some definite system; I don't think that's practical or realistic. I'm outlining some general guidelines that I think society should move towards, such as having the control of resources in the hands of the people, and a far more democratic society, perhaps one in which representation is constantly moved around the people and becomes a normal part of all people's lives. I do agree with some of the things that TVP proposes, such as using technology to eliminate the need for humans to perform menial jobs, but this is barely an idea unique to TVP, it's been around for ages.

So called 'laissez-faire' capitalism is a complete disaster; there's good reason the government intervenes in our supposedly free-market system, and that's because without it the system would break down in 5 minutes.

Oh, I certainly didn't mean to call you out in particular, I just thought it seemed odd that the premise of liberty at all costs hadn't even come up despite the OP refering to himself as an ex-libertarian (of the Austrian school, no less). I only chose your quote since it explicitly called out it's premise ("most effective way to achive technological innovation").

Okay, fair enough. Liberty at all costs pretty much is what I'm proposing: anarchism/ socialism, or anarcho-syndicalism if you like.

I would share my political philosophy but it's so radical that it can't even be put into words.

You should do stand-up.

thecite Wrote:anarcho-syndicalism if you like.

Aha! It was just a matter of time...
It cracks me up every time. You should do comedy.

Thora Wrote:

thecite Wrote:anarcho-syndicalism if you like.

Aha! It was just a matter of time...
It cracks me up every time. You should do comedy.

Any arguments?
I do tend to change my opinion often, you can ignore me if you like, doesn't bother me one bit.
That Monty Python clip is damn funny though.