overture2112 Wrote:Are there any good _Japanese_ resources besides Core6k?

On Smart.fm? The Japanese Newspaper and
Super Japanese Vocabulary lists seem pretty good.

I'm saddened by Smart.fm closing as well, it was a great place to rip decks to Anki from, even if I didn't like learning/reviewing from the site itself, but I can't say I'm surprised.
Actually, I kind of suspected it would happen ever since I read this blog post about what to study after RTK. Free sites can't last forever (most of the time).

EDIT: By the way, what's with the new "Core 3000" deck? Did they decide to dumb down Core 2k + 6k into Core 1k + 2k + 3k?

Bokusenou Wrote:EDIT: By the way, what's with the new "Core 3000" deck? Did they decide to dumb down Core 2k + 6k into Core 1k + 2k + 3k?

They've restructured the Core series on the new site so that it's now Core 1k, Core 2k, 3k, 4k, 5k and 6k. Each one contains 10 sets of 100 words.

They've also at least partially reordered the words. For example the harder words from the old core 2k set 3 are now the new core 2k set 10 (making them the 20th set in the course).

bodhisamaya Wrote:Anyone who pays for the service after giving hours, days, weeks... years to creating public lists should never claim to have an ounce of self-respect again.

Not sure why you say that. I've created lists on smart.fm and am considering paying because the site has contributed so much towards my learning and I'd be willing to put down money for that service. I find it works far better than Anki for me when it comes to actually learning new vocab.

I don't think many people at all spent "days" creating public lists since the majority of them just use the content already created and recorded by smart.fm - creating such lists takes very little time. The small amount of content provided by users was generally pretty bad. The reason I started creating lists myself was because the others were so full of mistakes and audio that consisted of people playing loud music down their microphone (when they could have just used the perfectly recorded audio already available).

Having said that, I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about it. The new website has changed greatly and even the actual learning program is different now (for example audio recognition is built into the lessons and there's a greater emphasis on kanji). Some of the changes are welcome, others are frustrating and confusing. I'll have to see what improvements and changes they make before I make the decision whether to pay or not.

I can certainly understand why people that have contributed are upset with this move.

Lucky I've been using anki from the start....

Bokusenou Wrote:Actually, I kind of suspected it would happen ever since I read this blog post about what to study after RTK. Free sites can't last forever (most of the time).

What's funny is that I wrote that almost 2 years ago. I should go back and clean up that blog, I suppose, now that it's wrong, and smart.fm is no longer free. 面倒くさいけど。

Thinking about it, having it for free for more than 2 years when they had absolutely no plan on how to make money off of it isn't too bad. What's a shame is that they took so long to come up with plan, and managed to alienate their userbase to this extent.

For people trying to learn new "stuff," there's always Anki's Cram Mode. It's not going to be a perfect analog to smart.fm's hand-holding, but it's free, and nobody's going to steal your stuff in the name of PROFIT!

If you don't like the way the new Cram Mode in Anki changes your due dates, there's a way to get around it -- with a spare empty deck you use just for cramming. Import your material to be learned into the empty deck, cram it to your heart's content, then empty the deck, and re-import the original material into your normal deck, and review it one more time to set it up like normal. That way you've "pre-learned" it without having the new delayed review times. Yes, it's roundabout. I didn't say it was quick and easy.

As for getting new material into Anki, I totally agree with Nadiatims-- there's a ton of great material already out there. You just have to look for it.

If you don't feel using the stuff out there or like typing your own, you can buy a flatbed scanner for $49 at Newegg, and OCR software for ~$150 and go at it. There's a thread on JP OCR software in here somewhere. The good stuff runs around $100-$150, IIRC.

EDIT: And there's always Japanesepod101.com as others have pointed out... but you'd have to pay for that as well. I use it and I like it, but to be honest, I subscribe more for the podcasts and the PDFs than for the interactive stuff. (And because I got the subscription for cheap!)

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rich_f Wrote:(...)
This is a reminder to all of us who use these kinds of sites-- what you think may be "your stuff" isn't your stuff. As soon as you put it on their website, on their servers, you're pretty much at their mercy, and if they decide to shut it down, erase it, go pay, or whatever, that's that.

What does "these kind of sites" mean? Sounds vague to me.

There are different issues at hand here. How they handle the user's right to their own created data (their legalese), how they handle the communication with the community (not so good apparently) etc.

Your comment appears unfair and inaccurate, to me. Aren't you able to export your data? AFAIK, you have until 31 March 2011 to export your lists and whatnot (I could be wrong).

@Elenkis Ah, that explains it, for a second I actually wondered if it was new content, before I realized that they'd be more likely to rehash the old content. I'm glad they didn't decrease the number of words though.

@rich_f You did?! It's a small world. Thank you so much for writing that post! ＾-＾ It really helped me weigh my options when I was at the "What to do after RTK?" crossroads. That post was definitely the most well written, extensive list that I found on the subject.

EDIT: I checked out the new iKnow site. It seems more buggy and less functional. Did they get rid of all the user profiles? How are people supposed to tell which users continually create good lists now? If there will be any of those left after the move... It seems like they got rid the social aspect of Smart.fm completely.

Bokusenou Wrote:EDIT: I checked out the new iKnow site. It seems more buggy and less functional. Did they get rid of all the user profiles? How are people supposed to tell which users continually create good lists now? If there will be any of those left after the move... It seems like they got rid the social aspect of Smart.fm completely.

They've said that only the core learning functionality is up right now and that they're completely redesigning the social side of things and the content sharing. That stuff is supposed to be "coming soon" but I guess we'll see.

Elenkis Wrote:They've said that only the core learning functionality is up right now and that they're completely redesigning the social side of things and the content sharing. That stuff is supposed to be "coming soon" but I guess we'll see.

That's ridiculous. So the new site is less functional than the old one, yet they're expecting users to start paying to use it? A buggy beta is really not a good advert for the service

Let's hope they get all the bugs out by end of March, but knowing them it'll still be broken somehow..

aphasiac Wrote:That's ridiculous. So the new site is less functional than the old one, yet they're expecting users to start paying to use it? A buggy beta is really not a good advert for the service

Let's hope they get all the bugs out by end of March, but knowing them it'll still be broken somehow..

Yes in some ways less functional, but in other ways more functional. It's frustrating as I really like some of the improvements, but missing things annoy me. It's a big change, but no one is paying for it yet. I don't think there's even an option to pay right now.

I think it shows promise but a lot will depend on whether they listen to their customers and actively work on improving the site.

It'd be interesting to take a look at the numbers.

It sounds like people are getting value from iknow (online, card timing, testing variation and feedback, dictation, complements Anki, etc.), but think $12/m is too much. So I'm curious what you would consider a reasonable one-time or subscription fee? (whether iknow or a new site)

If you pay a fee, do you expect no advertising at all?

For instance, my friend is in the process of launching a somewhat similar content (site and user generated) plus social networking site, but for a very niche market. Unlike iknow, his users also use it to promote themselves (like musicians used Myspace). He was advised to charge $9/month for premium memberships and offer fewer services for free members. There will be a free trial period for a few months. He also has advertisers. [edit: which are relevant to such a niche market]

That site's still up? ;p

So we can start calling it iKnow again when discussing C2k and C6k Anki decks?? Finally. Felt like I was talking about a radio station. & I don't even know what a radio is. Something they used in the 20th century.

I have just been creating a Pimsluer list.
how can i download the content anybody?

do i have to do it through an anki option,
or is it on Smart.fms site somewhere?
or when you say API is it somewhere else completely?
not a net newb, but never done it before.

would be gutted to lose them because I've spent a lot of time getting these right!

Please help
thanks

nest0r Wrote:That site's still up? ;p
So we can start calling it iKnow again when discussing C2k and C6k Anki decks?? Finally. Felt like I was talking about a radio station. & I don't even know what a radio is. Something they used in the 20th century.

Didn't anyone ever teach you to respect your elders? I'm before radio, so treat me with great compassion and sensitivity when I screw up...you little sh*t.

Edit:

Edit2: haha, I didn't realize there's a "new" iKnow! service. I thought Nest0r was teasing me for *still* calling it iKnow (as well as commenting on their branding). Sorry, Nest0r, you little angelic creature.

ファブリス Wrote:What does "these kind of sites" mean? Sounds vague to me.

There are different issues at hand here. How they handle the user's right to their own created data (their legalese), how they handle the communication with the community (not so good apparently) etc.

Your comment appears unfair and inaccurate, to me. Aren't you able to export your data? AFAIK, you have until 31 March 2011 to export your lists and whatnot (I could be wrong).

Okay, I'll be more specific:

If you don't own the server, or you don't pay for it, then don't get upset if they pull your "stuff." TANSTAAFL.

Hell, even if you pay for it, you might still get left out in the cold. The world is not a warm and fuzzy place. It is rather a cold and prickly one.

Thora Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:That site's still up? ;p
So we can start calling it iKnow again when discussing C2k and C6k Anki decks?? Finally. Felt like I was talking about a radio station. & I don't even know what a radio is. Something they used in the 20th century.

Didn't anyone ever teach you to respect your elders? I'm before radio, so treat me with great compassion and sensitivity when I screw up...you little sh*t.

Interestingly enough, are they planning on "respect your elders" being the only reason to use smart.fm/iKnow over some other service? Particularly since the new site seems far worse (the improvements don't count since pretty much all custom learning programs are useless given SRSs exist) and has no new content.

rich_f Wrote:If you don't own the server, or you don't pay for it, then don't get upset if they pull your "stuff." TANSTAAFL.

Hell, even if you pay for it, you might still get left out in the cold. The world is not a warm and fuzzy place. It is rather a cold and prickly one.

I agree that most people should understand that any website that offers any service is incurring costs to make those services available to you and thus it's reasonable (if unfortunate) that they may claim ownership on content that you store there (assuming such legal info is made clear and users have a chance to pull their stuff easily if they change their policy)- the degree of reasonableness being some function of the price you pay and the price they incur for providing the service.

I also mostly agree with your second statement- never trust anything to last, especially websites that have no regular income and are simply spending investor/personal money in the hopes that some large company will buy them or the magical/fickle revenue of ads somehow makes things work out.

The only sites worth investing time in are ones that provide useful APIs for extracting their data and thus you always have a valid exit strategy and way to constantly backup your own content and any paid for. Thankfully smart.fm had this.

I have to agree, I'm not really upset over this, I figured one day it would happen. While it was a neat tool, I only used it in addition to anki cause it was kind of neat.

Kind of neat isn't worth paying an extra recurring monthly fee for however so I will be sticking to anki for the time being. I expect one day it will cost money as well, and as long as it's only a one time fee, I'd have no problem supporting it for the benefit it's given me.

I'll just move on and remember the "good old days"

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overture2112 Wrote:I agree that most people should understand that any website that offers any service is incurring costs to make those services available to you and thus it's reasonable (if unfortunate) that they may claim ownership on content that you store there(...)

It's not necessary that they take ownership of the user generated content. StackOverflow for example had its content under a Creative Commons license.

That has problems though, as there are now many "ghost town" websites copying StackOverflow's content, which are flooding Google's search results, in order to get traffic and advertising revenue.

overture2112 Wrote:The only sites worth investing time in are ones that provide useful APIs for extracting their data and thus you always have a valid exit strategy and way to constantly backup your own content and any paid for.

There are many apps now that sync with DropBox. I wonder about web apps though. I mean that would be really painless, you don't even have to think about backing up your data.

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Thora Wrote:(...)
If you pay a fee, do you expect no advertising at all?

This subject came on a recent TWiT podcast, and I think the answer is yes: people do *not* expect to see advertising on an app they paid for.

One guy was saying also that one problem he had with free apps was the advertising, some apps don't have a paid option, and you're stuck with advertising, but this guy said he'd rather pay a few dollars and not have the ads.

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Dustin_Calgary Wrote:Kind of neat isn't worth paying an extra recurring monthly fee for however so I will be sticking to anki for the time being. I expect one day it will cost money as well, and as long as it's only a one time fee, I'd have no problem supporting it for the benefit it's given me.

I find this situation very interesting.

So what value did you guys get out of Smart.fm? The ability to extract lists for use in Anki, the audio, anything else ?

With no one left to create more decks, and a dead community, I expect an inevitable failure in Smart.FM's plan. nuff said

ファブリス Wrote:So what value did you guys get out of Smart.fm? The ability to extract lists for use in Anki, the audio, anything else ?

That's pretty much it - they gave away some words and sentences with audio. Their site isn't worth paying to use - I'd prefer to just organise a sharing community through another site than pay to use their features. It's the content that has value, and they already gave all the good stuff away free. I would actually have paid for the vocab/sentence pack, but J Sensei has 160% of that content for £10. Smart.fm is nothing if not a free, community-led resource.

Thora Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:That site's still up? ;p
So we can start calling it iKnow again when discussing C2k and C6k Anki decks?? Finally. Felt like I was talking about a radio station. & I don't even know what a radio is. Something they used in the 20th century.

Didn't anyone ever teach you to respect your elders? I'm before radio, so treat me with great compassion and sensitivity when I screw up...you little sh*t.

*Cry* Someone born in the 19th century is cursing at me on a 21st century web forum.

Thora Wrote:Edit:

Oh a smiley! That's OK then.

ファブリス Wrote:

Dustin_Calgary Wrote:Kind of neat isn't worth paying an extra recurring monthly fee for however so I will be sticking to anki for the time being. I expect one day it will cost money as well, and as long as it's only a one time fee, I'd have no problem supporting it for the benefit it's given me.

I find this situation very interesting.

So what value did you guys get out of Smart.fm? The ability to extract lists for use in Anki, the audio, anything else ?

IMHO smart.fm was almost like having another version of anki.

You can create lists/decks for either. There are good pre-made lists and decks available for either. You can create your own lists/decks on either to share with other people.

Smart.fm had on their side a "fun alternative" making it seem more of a game-like environment than anki, as well as their premium lists. The dictation was neat, but not something that can't mostly be reproduced in anki anyways.

Since they've made the premium lists freely available, that isn't the benefit of the paid service. The paid service simply gives you access to the application based on a monthly fee. If they aren't adding a lot of extra premium lists, then it's a colossal waste of money imho.

Anki on the other hand is much more customizable, can be used offline, on just about any portable device, and I can guarantee that even if they did decide to make it a paid app, it wouldn't be a recurring monthly fee, for an "application"

In the world of free information, and there is always an "app for that" you really need to make it worth the users money if you're going to have monthly fees. Unless the new iKnow application has some HUGE advantages, they've really missed the mark.