mafried Wrote:Part of the problem is that I physically lack a “mind's eye,” which makes imaginative memory quite difficult.

Surely this isn't possible?!

Just a little test - if you close your eyes and concentrate hard, are you able to picture your wife on your wedding day?

Not really. Kinda sad, huh?

Well, okay, sort of. But things I know very well are the exceptions. The things I know well here are my wife, the location, and the wedding dress. But I have a very hard time remembering what her makeup or hair was like, or the jewelry she was wearing (which was unique to that day) without looking at our wedding pictures. And when I do try to remember, what I get back are more like descriptive words than images.

It's apparently quite common, but not well studied:

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/mar/23-...mind.s-eye

Discover ran the above article about a brain patient, and it generated a flood of letters to the editor from people like me who thought this guy's “condition” was just normal everyday life. There's now some psych studies being done to see how many people there are like me, and why it occurs (seems to be developmental, not genetic).

When people talked about being able to ‘see’ things in their mind's eye/imaginative memory, I always assumed this was allegorical. I didn't realize people can actually close their eyes, think about something they may have just seen once or not know well, and have an image of it come to them in (somewhat) vivid detail. I can't do that. What I get is words typically. My guess is that I have no direct link to my visual memory*, but rather recall passes first through the language center. What limited imaginative faculty I have then pulls together an image that matches these words, but the words generate the scene, not describe it. It is the words that I remember, and the scene is constructed from them. If the words are wrong, then my visual memory will be wrong.

* Although it clearly is there because I can have vivid dreams at times...

Remember, sure: if I think about what I did yesterday, the memory comes back in. And if it was things I do often in locations I visit often, I'll probably have a good visual memory of it too. But anything unique or original I remember as words. If I met someone for the first time I could probably describe them to you, but I'd really struggle to remember their face beyond those descriptive words.

It makes Heisig difficult because I am forced to make direct associations of keyword -> primitives. The story becomes less a tool for remembrance and more a validity check. If I see a keyword and remember the primitives correctly, the primitives will trigger the memory and only then will the whole story come back in vivid detail. If I don't get that vivid memory, then I know I remembered the wrong primitives.

Heisig explicitly warns against remembering keyword -> primitives directly. And so would I because I know it's no walk in the park. But unfortunately there's no changing the way my mind works

800.

Reviews plus new cards took about 3 hours today. I'm running up against the limit of how much time I have each day to devote. I'm going to have to start getting creative at boosting my efficiency if I'm going to maintain this rate.

On the plus side, the hand/elbow primitives haven't been too difficult. I've been told that around 800 is trouble zone, but if the last 50 are any indication, I should make it through this patch relatively unharmed. (Knock on wood...)

@tokyostyle, thanks that's good to know. I certainly hope I end up with that ‘problem’!

833.

Today was a hard day. I started my reviews in the morning, and continued throughout the day as I had free windows of time, but didn't finish until just after midnight. I didn't start on a good footing either--I failed more than half of the cards from yesterday. The stories just didn't stick at all. Someone warned me that around 800 is a tough zone. For me it started around frame 700, but because of the delay of SRS scheduling, I'm just feeling the effects now.

After those failures, and knowing how much other work I have to do today, I gave myself permission to do just 33 cards today and the next two days. I can do this (three consecutive days at 33/day) two more times and still meet my end-of-Feb completion date.

The other reason I slowed down is that I have a big hump of reviews coming in the next couple of days. This is what my due graph says:



I think the hump is from the day I added new cards, but pushed off reviewing them until the following morning. That had its ramifications, it seems. This difficult zone I'm in now is probably going to have an even worse effect...

mafried Wrote:When people talked about being able to ‘see’ things in their mind's eye/imaginative memory, I always assumed this was allegorical. I didn't realize people can actually close their eyes, think about something they may have just seen once or not know well, and have an image of it come to them in (somewhat) vivid detail.

I can't do that. What I get is words typically.

My guess is that I have no direct link to my visual memory*, but rather recall passes first through the language center. What limited imaginative faculty I have then pulls together an image that matches these words, but the words generate the scene, not describe it. It is the words that I remember, and the scene is constructed from them. If the words are wrong, then my visual memory will be wrong.

* Although it clearly is there because I can have vivid dreams at times...

If, when i close my eyes to try to see something, i fail. There does not come up any image of anything if i try. But i knew all along that i can daydream pretty well. Sitting there, looking into the distant, i can conjure up all sorts of visual images before my inner eye. Sure, my surroundings do not vanish when i do or when i let it happen, but i have clear images i can draw upon. And i can sort of "control" those images, play around with them. And this is how i did RTK, with my "visual memory," to help me to remember.

Maybe you can draw upon the "power" of daydreaming as well. If visual memory does not work for you this might be something that still works. Try to relax, just sit there, and try to see your wife on her wedding day. Do not try to force any memory to come to you, to be able to "see" what it was she wore. Just relax and let it happen. Let everything that happened on the day of your wedding come to you, and "look" at what images come before your inner eye. Then try to walk through that scene, and "see," if you can make out any details, like jewelry she wore.

If this works you can try the same with the stories for RTK. Say you have the keyword "autumn," before you start writing any stories, that contain the primitve elements "wheat" and "fire," sit there, relax and let your mind conjure up images where those two primitives, in autumn, play a role, and "form" 秋. If you have found a great image, write down what you have seen!

Or say, you try to do 森, three trees, try to see yourself walking through a wood, where those three trees are, and let something happen to them.

mafried Wrote:Heisig explicitly warns against remembering keyword -> primitives directly. And so would I because I know it's no walk in the park. But unfortunately there's no changing the way my mind works

Do you know the saying that goes: "Many paths are leading to Rome?" If you do, you will notice that there is not one single way to accomplish it. The above mentioned is not visual memory as described by Heisig, but it did a wonderful job for me, because this is how my mind works.

If i read a book, say Murakami Hard boiled wonderland or the End of the world, i can see most scenes before my "inner eye," and experience his world. I have read that book so many times, and i can "see" the chubby girl, who is dressed all pink. Or the librarian, and how he the main character stands there at the counter, with an ice cream he bought for her. Or the scene with the unicorns lying in the grass, or the apple grove, or the shed where the shadow is waiting for his death.

I can clearly see this right now, while typing this all too long wall of text. While all i try to say is this, you just have to know what works best for you, and use it as effectively as possible. And if the method fails, look for one, that works and is a better fit for you.

Here is an interesting article about "visual memory," and how to improve it. I guess you could try that and see if it works. *click me*

頑張ってね！

To be honest, I've never thought of RTK as a particularly ‘visual’ method in terms of detailed imagery. I'm racking my brain trying to think of a story where I thought of the primitives/kanji in a detailed visual way, but I can't. Or even very many in a sketchy visual way. More like conceptual-symbolic, integrated into a logical arrangement supplemented by language and spatial/gestural relations (with regards to primitive placement).

I think you (mafried) might be overemphasizing possible physiological underpinnings for your visual troubles, as well, possibly through your thoughtful introspection about the method? If we went by anecdotal evidence, human beings would be quite bizarre creatures, each with incredibly different brains, each one based on distorted self-perception conditioned by various experiences and whatever popular scientific models were in vogue at the time.

Glancing through the paper, MX seems to be the singular result of a surgical procedure, even if their case results in interesting replicable research results.

866.

Thanks for the advice, guys. So far the Heisig method has been working for me, although I do need to exert quite a bit of little extra effort for a few kanji here and there. I hope that I can keep up this pace for the rest of RTK-1!

Today was just as difficult as yesterday, although I had better recall on yesterday's cards. The last few cards added were much simpler though, and I'm hoping that I'm out of the worst of it. Peeking ahead at the characters for tomorrow, that appears to be the case...

Well done mafried. I've enjoyed reading this thread and aslp want to finish by end of febuary but I am a little further ahead at 1100 ish.
I like what was said re relaxing- I did work in starbucks yesterday and got 95% on 30 cards this morning. Enjoy the journey!

900.

Smooth sailing today--I think I'm out of the rough period. Good thing too, as I'm not going to have much free time this weekend.

@michaeltrew, thanks, and good luck to you! I'm sure you will have no trouble finishing. Be careful around 1300: I hear that's another difficult spot.

Thanks for the tip so long ago, I also had quite a few problems with the 800's but for some strange reason i don't think it's the same kind of problem. I can remember all of the elements of the kanji but not where to put them. I think i'll just have to start working those into my stories as i go.

Also i find myself checking this topic almost everyday to see if you've been able to reach your goal, and as a way to motivate myself to continue through the book, so I would like to say thanks. At any rate it's good to see you surviving, and look at the bright side, in two days you'll reach the half way mark, so it'll all be down hill from there right?

Once again, good luck

938.

@unholieststew, I'm glad you're making progress and you find this motivating! I sometimes find myself wondering about the other people at the same level who have posted in this thread or elsewhere. It definitely motivates to me to reach my goals. Good luck!

Today is Sunday; my last post was Friday and I've only advanced 38 kanji. This has been a rough weekend. The kanji have not been difficult, but I've been so busy that I haven't gotten my proper study time in. I didn't even finish my reviews on Saturday--the ultimate no-no. Today was equally busy, but with the help of AnkiDroid I was able to finish all the built-up reviews and learn a few dozen new cards. I've researched and added or unsuspended all cards up to frame 1000 (the point I should be at), but after a long two days my brain has turned to mush and if I continue studying I'm sure I won't remember anything.

This week should be better. I've got more time for studying on the weekdays than the weekend.

This is cool posting progress as you go I've been doing the same thing on a blogger website. At 363 right now. I'm on a minimum of 180 per week and a max of 200 per week. I feel a max is necessary to ensure not rushing to fast. So I should be done RTK1 by April 14th I believe. Then Its off to RTK3. Finishing RTK1 is really only 2/3 done and I don't intend to stop after it. But I guess time will tell.

Nice thread.

1018.

Just three short of being able to post in the half-way thread. But my brain's fried--I guess I don't have what it takes to hang with the 100/day thread crowd

@NoSleepTilFluent, sounds like you're making great progress. Consistency wins the race! Mind sharing your blogger site?

EDIT: Feels nice to be in quad digits though

Being in the 4 digits is great, it's even better once there's only 3 digits remaining!


Keep it up, I took several breaks near the end from adding cards just to maintain my sanity, now I usually have about 75 cards ( next 2 days I've spiked to 120ish ) and other than that it's dropping regularly with a few minor bumps, it gets harder, much harder, if you keep up this pace, but then it gets 10 times easier once you're done and things mellow out

Off topic, sorry hard-working kanji-counting learners, but,

mafried Wrote:When people talked about being able to ‘see’ things in their mind's eye/imaginative memory, I always assumed this was allegorical. I didn't realize people can actually close their eyes, think about something they may have just seen once or not know well, and have an image of it come to them in (somewhat) vivid detail. I can't do that.

This. What you said in this post sounds extremely familiar. I seem to be yet another person who lacks a mind's eye, and I never even realised it wasn't normal. When I did RTK it was like: keyword -> triggers recall of story (a sentence made of words) -> words in the story indicate which primitives are used. I guess some (most?) people actually have a mental picture, like a photograph of a crazy scene?

Tisane Wrote:I guess some (most?) people actually have a mental picture, like a photograph of a crazy scene?

I think that's the whole point of this exercise. Shame I can't do it.

I tend to keep things abstract and have a devil of a time picturing anything in my mind. That probably explains why my recall often dips to 80% despite my best efforts. Still, I'm at frame #1733 after starting in late October and will finish this journey and keep reviewing until I've made this language mine.

I don't mind http://nosleeptilfluent.blogspot.com

It's mainly just progress and my thoughts about how I'm learning Kanji and what I feel is working for me as I think it. I'm sure many of opinions will change as I keep going and I think it will interesting to go back and see how my thoughts have changed. But yeah check it out if you want leave a comment to say "Ossu" etc.


Edit: The whole picturing in your mind thing can be increased with practiced. I also don't have a very strong mind's eye I use to have none. But i can get colors now. SO I associate pictures with colors and feelings. Check many of the great NLP books if it really interest you. Everyone will tell you Frogs and Princes is a good book to introduce NLP.

Some people have different memory abilities.

For me, I can associate things with song and musical notes and sounds VERY well, but I struggle with the picturing images and stuff.

Unfortunately it seem those of us with other strong memory types than text and images get the shaft with RtK

1075.

Thanks everyone! It's getting late and I can't reply individually, but thanks for the good advice, and it's good to know I'm not alone here on the memory thing. When reading Heisig I always wish that my memory works like he describes, but it doesn't. We've just got to deal with that, and so far it's been alright.

I'm back into familiar territory with some of the primitives. Unfortunately quite a few of the meanings had to change, which will take some getting used to. The further I get, the more impressed I am with Heisig's keyword and primitive choices 90% of the time. It's much more poetic than you would get in a dictionary, and there's some hidden gotchas that by choice of keyword he has very carefully avoided without calling attention to.

Unfortunately I used KanjiABC to learn the primitive originally, and created my own accurate but terrible to remember keywords for many of them. As I go through I am updating these old cards, but it is frustrating to have to relearn these stories.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I crossed the half-way point at the start of today! But after the last few painful sessions I think it means more to be out of the 800-zone than it does to have reached quad-digits. It's smooth sailing for the next few days at least. Anyway, I'm off to make a post to the half-way thread!

There should be a 1/4 done and 3/4 done thread. I wanna post on one. lol Guess I'll just have to work to get to the half way mark. and then the Finished /golfclap thread.! Nah I feel like I'm really doing something good for my Japanese by doing all these Kanji. Once I got these down it will be such a relief as well as bragging rights to all my friends in Japanese class.

I want to do more Kanji now after posting on this forum! but I already hit my limit... grrr maybe I shouldn't limit myself. I just want to avoid burning out.

How are you doing with dealing with burn out? are you getting tired of Kanji yet?

First, mafried, let me say I'm rooting for you! And I can appreciate your reasons for wanting to learn Japanese (from another thread).

In my experience, redoing something after a break seems to solidify that knowledge (more than continued review?) As a kid, my piano teacher used to get me to shelve a memorized piece for a few months, then pull it out again before I needed to play it.

So redoing RTK may be a valuable 'refresher' for you and you won't need to maintain any reviews. :-) I did RTK again years after completing only half of it. I can't seem to forget some of the keywords/stories for the ones I redid even when I want to...

Also, because you now have some Japanese under your belt, you'll be better able to incorporate the actual 'sense' of some kanji or an appropriate Japanese word into your stories. I think any stories/kanji associations that don't need to be jettisoned are helpful in the long run. (Consider using any Japanese words you know well. I wish I had.)

Might not apply to you, but here's one other small thing I would do differently if I could. I'd resist the temptation to link similar kanji together into sequential stories. Trying to recall one can require or trigger recall of the whole sequence. Independent stories are better, imo.

mafried Wrote:The further I get, the more impressed I am with Heisig's keyword and primitive choices 90% of the time. It's much more poetic than you would get in a dictionary, and there's some hidden gotchas that by choice of keyword he has very carefully avoided without calling attention to.

I think so too. You also mentioned how he sometimes cleverly uses an English keyword whose multiples meanings cover the multiple meanings of the kanji! That occasionally makes it difficult to create Japanese keywords that are equivalents to the English keywords, but it's impressive.

So...I'll be following your progress....my velvet boot ready. ;-)

1000+ kanji already? Have the battle is done already . You'll be finished soon, just keep going!

1092.

My grandmother passed away last Sunday; the funeral was on Friday. I have have been quite busy over the last week, obviously. I decided at first to stick the whatever-it-takes/schedule-my-life-around-the-reviews attitude of my first post. My grandmother is certainly more important than my Japanese studies, but I was worried--no, scared--that if I took a small break it would inevitably turn into a long extended break, as it has in the past. I also took it as a personal challenge of sorts to maintain my studies in face of everything else going on.

Of course it didn't work. I fell quickly fell behind in my last few posts. Now 4 days later and I've really only kept up with my reviews (thanks having Anki on my smartphone), adding less than 20 in one rare free moment. At least my reviews per day have been cut in half from 200+ to 114 today.

But while doing reps in the car on the way to the funeral I found myself rethinking priorities. Maintaining the 50/day pace had become difficult recently, and I was considering dropping to 33/day. It's the increasing demands of approaching deadlines in my personal and professional life that is causing the problem, not the number of reviews--even at my peak of 200 reviews/day I was spending less than an hour in Anki. The bottleneck is definitely adding new kanji, as I cross-check each one against a slew of online dictionaries. I can do 50 new-kanji/day only on a very good day, unless I had already researched most of the new kanji (as was the case early on).

In the “thread 4 the rest of us” wemaydance, I, and others had a discussion about day-to-day consistency vs. sprints and sabbaticals. I'm always an advocate of consistency over unsustainable speed runs, and it made me realize that I've been a bit of a hypocrite in this thread. 50/day is unsustainable, and on the bad days I don't make it. I think it would be much healthier to set a bar that I can meet even on the bad days, and allow myself to both exceed this rate on good days, and to meet the bare minimum on the bad days. So to that end I've drastically reduced my day-to-day goals: 11/day minimum, and absolutely no more than 30/day (added in sets of 11, 10, 9), no matter the circumstances.

Why the maximum value? Well another part of the reasoning is that I want to give myself study time on the good days to study and explore other parts of Japanese. Assimil, Tae Kim, preparing my RTK-2 and KO2001 decks.. those are all things I'm itching to work on now, and allowing myself a little time on those per day, on the good days, would do much alleviate that. The maximum limit will hopefully keep me from feeling like a failure from not doing more RTK.

At 11/day I'd finish May 11th. I was hoping to be done sooner, but better late than never, and as long as I'm done before summer I'd be happy. If I can pull 30/day on the weekdays, and the bare minimum on the weekends, Mar 24th would be my end date. (That just happens to be the baby's due date..)

So that's my plan. Now that I'm back home I'll post more regularly, hopefully keeping to my daily update schedule.

@NoSleepTilFluent, I was going to point you at the 500 thread, but I see you found it already. There's also a 3/4 thread, but you'll have to search for it as I don't think it's been posted to in some time. I plan on reviving it soon

@Thora, thanks for the response and advice! I remember when you first joined, and watched your progress. It means a lot to hear from you I've had the same experience with kanji chains and similar methods. I find it difficult and unnecessary to remember a chain of stories in order to pull out the meaning or reading of any one kanji. I tried it, and too often I would forget some link in the middle and then the chain would be useless :\ After RTK-1 I plan on doing RTK-2, which has a method I can appreciate. No kanji chains or towns for me

@ta12121, thanks! I was calculating how many days I have left at my new pace, and realized that I've entered triple digits for the number of kanji left--950 to be exact. It's finally sunk in that I really am more than half-way...

it's exciting to see the progress again. I definitely like the consistency and maximum of limits. I've been doing this and it feels great to max out your weekly Kanji. I sometimes have gone beyond the maximum out of determination to finish the 2nd part of the book but now that I'm in the "Oh hey you need to create stories yourself" part, I take the maximum more seriously otherwise I'd never get any other work done. School doesn't care that I want to learn Kanji before going back to Japan this summer. Can't wait to see you at the end of this endurance race called literacy.

I like the idea of minimum and maximum reviews per day... that way you still feel accomplished after reaching the min, and can still do more (maybe I'll try it out too). Just read this thread all the way through and it was great to see your progression thus far. You can do it!