Here's one for Fabrice.

http://scienceblog.com/42003/mindfulness...in-8-weeks

"Participating in an 8-week mindfulness meditation program appears to make measurable changes in brain regions associated with memory, sense of self, empathy and stress. In a study that will appear in the January 30 issue of Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging, a team led by Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) researchers report the results of their study, the first to document meditation-produced changes over time in the brain’s grey matter.

...

Previous studies from Lazar’s group and others found structural differences between the brains of experienced mediation practitioners and individuals with no history of meditation, observing thickening of the cerebral cortex in areas associated with attention and emotional integration. But those investigations could not document that those differences were actually produced by meditation."

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I stumbled upon a related YouTube vid lately, thought I'd throw it in here

Jon Kabat-Zinn leads a session on Mindfulness at Google.

Always nice to see science getting there. Though they're still poking and prodding from the outside.

I actually did this 8 week course with someone who went to a JKZ retreat in Sydney. It was very good I have to say. Can't say whether it changed my brain or not! But then again, maybe I started learning kanji better since I did it...

ファブリス Wrote:I stumbled upon a related YouTube vid lately, thought I'd throw it in here

Jon Kabat-Zinn leads a session on Mindfulness at Google.

Always nice to see science getting there. Though they're still poking and prodding from the outside.

In some ways, science is spiritually superior. "We are all one" is a common spiritual mantra, but few actually take it to heart. Scientists have very strong faith that prior to the Big Bang, we were all one contained within a pinpoint of light. One day we will return to that state with the Big Crunch. Not many religions share such a conviction in our initial lack of separation, or the fact we will all be enlightened again eventually.

Thank you for the link Fabrice. The video was excellent! completely fascinating...

I want to use an arcade game to go to the Tron world (The Grid) and meditate on a mat in a time dilation state until little blue flecks of light start streaming upward around me, indicative that I have become one with the umm, retro computer programs and have started talking like Lebowski. Eventually I'll be able to kneel down and turn out the lights by touching the floor, instead of clapping my hands.

Here's a recent article about mathematics and cosmology: Scientists Aren't Always Complete Idiots

bodhisamaya Wrote:

ファブリス Wrote:I stumbled upon a related YouTube vid lately, thought I'd throw it in here

Jon Kabat-Zinn leads a session on Mindfulness at Google.

Always nice to see science getting there. Though they're still poking and prodding from the outside.

In some ways, science is spiritually superior. "We are all one" is a common spiritual mantra, but few actually take it to heart. Scientists have very strong faith that prior to the Big Bang, we were all one contained within a pinpoint of light. One day we will return to that state with the Big Crunch. Not many religions share such a conviction in our initial lack of separation, or the fact we will all be enlightened again eventually.

No good scientist has faith in anything - evidence suggests that the Big Bang initiated in an infinitesimal. There are plenty of alternative theories though. Also, according to the theory, time was created in the Big Bang, so there was nothing 'before' it (there's no 'before' for there to have been anything in). However, most scientists live their lives assuming that the major concepts of science are correct, so they live with the assumption that we are indeed all derived from the same point of matter and energy, that matter and energy are inter-convertible, and that matter and energy from one human will quite possibly take part in another living entity when the human dies. All could be claimed by religions, but they are no such thing. You can spiritualise it, but that's a projection. Living with assumptions is necessary, and not the same as faith.

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God, no... not another science debate. W_W

When I was in secondary school my science teacher called me the "poet of science". It didn't mean anything about my comprehension of the subject. It just meant I had a way of describing things and putting it into words.

All this to say... I think bodhisamaya was jesting. Thank god not everyone communicates like Data.

Yeah sorry, can't remember why I posted that link. ;p Must've been listening to the song 'Firestarter' by The Prodigy.

I believe this book is based on that course. I've been considering buying it just to see what it's all about, but 500 pages is a bit offputting. Has anybody read it? I'm interested in reading about it from the stress/pain relief angle.

I think many mindfulness studies could use some placebo groups. In this study for example, it might be that the social interaction associated with the meetings and the memorization of the exercises were the main causes of the changes in brain structures. So a placebo group where people get together and learn, for example, how to improve household skills (cooking etc.) might see the same benefits.

I'm not trying to devalue the study though! This still is pretty good evidence that mindfulness exercises can and do improve mental health, judging by this article. I just thought that it would be interesting to see how much of the effects are really mindfulness-specific. As I see it traditional eastern meditation/mindfulness isn't that special, I'd imagine there are plenty of other activities (like playing music, drawing, fishing, etc.) that can have the same benefits if performed in a state of tranquility and mindfulness isn't always the best way to get there. I do think mindfulness has its uses and at the same time I think it's a shame if we over-estimate it and blind ourselves to other potential treatments that can suit some individuals better.

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Another article about the study.

How Meditation May Change the Brain
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/28...ef=general

Mindfulness practice leads to increases in regional brain gray matter density
http://www.psyn-journal.com/article/S092...X/abstract

The author of the nytimes article mention her husband went to a 10 day silent meditation retreat which "was so transformational that he has committed to meditating for two hours a day, once in the morning and once in the evening".

My guess is it was the dhamma.org 10 day retreats which I have mentioned here before, because they do encourage students to maintain the practice one hour morning and one hour evening.

Meditation is several thousand years old and...

Quote:“The field is very, very young, and we don’t really know enough about it yet,” Dr. Hölzel said. “I would say these are still quite preliminary findings. We see that there is something there, but we have to replicate these findings and find out what they really mean.”

(w_w)

While not directly related, in a very real sense just about any placebo study could be seen as a positive case for the effectiveness of meditation. Simple armchair idiot-on-the-internet logic would seem to dictate that if it is possible to actually get better from a very real ailment by having a (potentially fake) doctor give you (potentially fake) medicine, then it should be quite possible to cause similar changes knowingly, provided one has the mental fortitude and/or practice.

Not that I don't think placebo studies for meditation shouldn't be done or are a waste or anything, far from it, bring on the science. The more we know the better. It just seems like meditation may very well be the ultimate placebo effect. This is not a bad thing, given how astonishingly well the placebo often works, and the scope of what it can change. Grossly oversimplifying, meditation is mind over matter, and the placebo effect has demonstrated time and time again that our minds can cause real change to our bodies.

And for some entertainment:

ninetimes Wrote:Not that I don't think placebo studies for meditation shouldn't be done or are a waste or anything, far from it, bring on the science. The more we know the better. It just seems like meditation may very well be the ultimate placebo effect. This is not a bad thing, given how astonishingly well the placebo often works, and the scope of what it can change. Grossly oversimplifying, meditation is mind over matter, and the placebo effect has demonstrated time and time again that our minds can cause real change to our bodies.

Sometimes I feel like the English language, much like it needs to get over a sexist way of phrasing things, needs to drop the silly Cartesian dualism.

Your mind is your body. The placebo effect is just one part of your body (your brain) having an effect on another part of your body.

Note, also, that when we're talking about effectiveness in the context of medicine, psychology, and so on, we're talking about effectiveness greater than the placebo effect. We have a phrase for medicine that works as well as the placebo effect--"Medicine that doesn't work."

ninetimes Wrote:While not directly related, in a very real sense just about any placebo study could be seen as a positive case for the effectiveness of meditation. Simple armchair idiot-on-the-internet logic would seem to dictate that if it is possible to actually get better from a very real ailment by having a (potentially fake) doctor give you (potentially fake) medicine, then it should be quite possible to cause similar changes knowingly, provided one has the mental fortitude and/or practice.

That's what The Mindbody Prescription claims to be able to do. Sarno's theory is that certain types of ailments are used as a distraction mechanism by the mind to avoid dealing with emotional issues. If you can understand how and why this is happening, then you should be able to take control of it. I believe his background is in conventional medicine, but he claims to have cured thousands of patients suffering from things like chronic back pain using these psychological techniques.

I'm usually pretty sceptical about this sort of thing, but when you think about the physical effects of stress, something created completely in the mind, it doesn't seem so ridiculous to think that something similar could be happening on a deeper (unconscious) level. I've seen it recommended by a lot of people, so I thought I'd give it a try a read through at least.

ninetimes Wrote:It just seems like meditation may very well be the ultimate placebo effect.

And this is what I take issue with, how meditation is assumed to be the ultimate kind of recreation for improving health. This is why I think it's important we don't raise mindfulness too high and forget to compare it with other types of recreation and social activities that are not linked to mindfulness. Even assuming that it's found that mindfulness would be the most healthy type of recreation for the general population we need to look at how it can differ depending on what kind of ailment (or the cases in which there are no direct ailments) is being treated and between different groups of individuals. Like I said I believe meditation has a lot of uses but I see a tendency to over-hype it and I think that's a shame because it risks damaging mindfulness' reputation.

Edit: Actually I misused 'placebo group' in my first post, I started writing something about placebo first but then I thought the 'alternative group' (what it should say since it's more than just placebo) idea was more interesting. Sorry for the confusion.

Tzadeck Wrote:We have a phrase for medicine that works as well as the placebo effect--"Medicine that doesn't work."

Except it often does? I mean, roundabout, due to the placebo effect the body compensates on its own accord. But a measurable effect has occurred, so it's not like nothing happened.

ninetimes Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:We have a phrase for medicine that works as well as the placebo effect--"Medicine that doesn't work."

Except it often does? I mean, roundabout, due to the placebo effect the body compensates on its own accord. But a measurable effect has occurred, so it's not like nothing happened.

Yeah, something did happen, but the way you test whether or not a medicine worked or not is whether it does better than placebo effect.

Let's say that 30% of people who have strep throat will recover by themselves within two weeks. If you gave them all sugar pills, the number would definitely be higher, and let's say it turns out that about 40% of people recover within two weeks by placebo.

Now, let's say I think that cinnamon and lemon, given in pill form, cures strep throat. I make little capsules with cinnamon and lemon in them and give them to a lot of patients. If I only compare the results to people not taking any pills, there weill definitely be an improvement. The experiment is done, and it turns out that 30% of people who have strep throat recover by themselves within two weeks. On the other side, 40% of the people who took the cinnamon and lemon recovered within two weeks. Is this useful data at all?

No, because you could have put ANYTHING in the pill (providing it wasn't hurtful) and it would have worked out that way. But, if you give one group sugar pills, another group cinnamon and lemon pills, and a third group nothing, you get more interesting results. If in the cinnamon and lemon group 50% of the patients recover within two weeks, and in the placebo group only 40% do, it means that cinnamon and lemon are effective in treating strep throat.

(Things are a bit different in practice, as often medicines are compared to the other medicines being used at the time, or there is no control group that gets nothing, and similar other things which are done to make the study more ethical)

But if the numbers for both are at 40%, it means that cinnamon and lemon is not effective in treating strep throat. In other words, what makes something medicine is whether or not it performs better than placebo. So anything that doesn't do better than placebo 'doesn't work,' as I said.

40% of a given group is more than zero. I'm not seeing where the not-working is happening. I think maybe you misunderstood my point and now you're arguing something that seems kind of off base?

Yes homeopathy in general tends to be nothing more than a placebo effect in terms of its actual effects -- it is not actually doing something, but the body is tricked into doing more than it was going to otherwise. All I'm saying is that meditation could (again, grossly oversimplifying, don't hit me meditation experts) be useful as a tool to do the same thing without being tricked by an inert substance.

If 40% of people see physical benefits induced via any means, that doesn't seem to mean it 'doesn't work'. It sounds more like it works 40% of the time.

I'm really confused. (actually, not as confused, figured it out below i think.)

edit: Actually I guess I do see what you're saying -- you're saying if it isn't any better than the placebo effect, it might as well be 'useless' -- except it's not, if it could be individually and regularly induced. Even if it maintained only a similar level of effectiveness as a placebo, with the same percentages, if an individual could enact that benefit on command rather than having to go through some form of pharmacological duplicity, I would think that would be a pretty huge benefit. It is very much something for nothing.

Here's a cool video on placebos:

Placebo does give validity to those who claim we create our own realities. Creating your own reality to experience post-session is the point of meditation.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Placebo does give validity to those who claim we create our own realities. Creating your own reality to experience post-session is the point of meditation.

I'm not sure it's so much creating your "own reality", as mindfulness is about simply connecting with what you are aware of around you in the present moment, whether this is ultimately "real" or not. Of course, meditation helps you to accept what you are aware of outside (and, perhaps more importantly, inside your head) more fully and totally. I think this acceptance is really important.

vinniram Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:Placebo does give validity to those who claim we create our own realities. Creating your own reality to experience post-session is the point of meditation.

I'm not sure it's so much creating your "own reality", as mindfulness is about simply connecting with what you are aware of around you in the present moment, whether this is ultimately "real" or not. Of course, meditation helps you to accept what you are aware of outside (and, perhaps more importantly, inside your head) more fully and totally. I think this acceptance is really important.

It all depends on whether our senses perceive, or create our environments. There are those who subscribe to both views. You are right though. Awareness is what meditation builds if done correctly.