Try these on your Japanese friends.

1. yuutsu (meaning melancholy)

2. Naha (the capital of Okinawa)

3. Ehime (the prefecture)

4. hatsuratsu (meaning lively)



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1. 憂鬱 - 44 strokes, very fun
2. 那覇 - Should be easy considering the probably thousands of times they have read this word. But everyone always gets 覇 wrong.
3. 愛媛 - Actually pretty easy but Japanese people from anywhere north of Osaka often completely forget 媛.
4. 潑溂 - はつ must be in prewar form in order to be correct.

haha I could actually write two out of those 4 from memory (thanks to my production deck. Which goes kana to kanji/translation.
那覇
愛媛

I got this quiz from a Japanese professor who teaches at Osaka University. He gives this quiz every year and for the last 25 years only 1 student has ever gotten number 4 correct. That's one hard word.

Womacks23 Wrote:4. 潑溂 - はつ must be in prewar form in order to be correct.

What? Says who?

Who says that #4 has to be pre-war to be correct?
My 広辞苑 (and others) have 溌剌 and 溌溂, but no sign of the old version.

On a second note: i couldn't write any from memory.

Aijin Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:4. 潑溂 - はつ must be in prewar form in order to be correct.

What? Says who?

"Hatsu" in "hatsuratsu" is not listed among the acceptable characters recognized in the postwar standard lists and therefore must be written in the prewar form to be correct.

Womacks23 Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:4. 潑溂 - はつ must be in prewar form in order to be correct.

What? Says who?

"Hatsu" in "hatsuratsu" is not listed among the acceptable characters recognized in the postwar standard lists and therefore must be written in the prewar form to be correct.

Why would 溌 be incorrect simply for not being a 常用漢字 when the prewar form isn't on the list either? Would you consider only 蠟燭 correct and 蝋燭 incorrect then?

溌剌 is recognized by plenty of dictionaries as well as speakers, which is the only thing that really matters for all practical purposes. Prewar forms are mostly extinct, and the only reason to keep a word with the prewar form when the character's been simplified, or a variation can be used, is for reasons of long-standing tradition, such as in proper nouns. There's no reason to use outdated characters for mere adjectives.

Womacks23 Wrote:"Hatsu" in "hatsuratsu" is not listed among the acceptable characters recognized in the postwar standard lists and therefore must be written in the prewar form to be correct.

This has only been stated on the new version of the Jouyou list that just became "official" recently. Prior to that, there was no clear indication of whether non-Jouyou kanji should be simplified or not. Not simplifying any non-Jouyou characters does seem to be the practice of some publishers but it's hard to label that as the only correct way to do things.

(Actually I can't even find if it's stated on the new Jouyou...I thought I read that somewhere.)

I call this the "Java la Hut" falacy.

Asriel Wrote:Who says that #4 has to be pre-war to be correct?
My 広辞苑 (and others) have 溌剌 and 溌溂, but no sign of the old version.

On a second note: i couldn't write any from memory.

That's odd since my 公辞苑 has only 潑溂 and 潑剌. What year is yours?
Mine is 3rd edition. Showa 62, so 1987?

It is because the kanji 溌 is only recognized as a variant of 潑. While 潑 is recognized as 繁体字, 正字, and most importantly, 印刷標準字体.

yudantaiteki Wrote:(Actually I can't even find if it's stated on the new Jouyou...I thought I read that somewhere.)

I'm not positive, but my understanding was that it's still up in the air.

I think it was a separate decision from the recent revisions to the Jouyou list. Around 2004, the folks at the language commission (don't recall the proper name) decided that kanji outside the lists would use their traditional forms. Its application is still limited to newspapers, government docs and publishing, etc. There was no official guidance before, so there was a mix. Asahi had developed their own set of simplified forms (which they've since ditched.)

Microsoft and Apple complied [correction: with JIS 2004] by changing their fonts. [JIS 2004 was in response to the govt's list of preferred forms for about 1000 non-Jouyou kanji]. This caused a bit of chaos, so the companies distributed supplemental font packages to remedy the problem.

I'd expect most people would use the simplified 溌 because that's what's been available. As Womacks says, though, the traditional form is now the official standard form for printing.

As for the kanji quiz, 2 of them are recent jouyou additions (鬱 and 媛) so I wouldn't be surprised if students and Japanese learners would have a better chance of being able to write those two right now. For 覇, I wonder if people weren't sure which は character is in 那覇, but they'd be able to write 覇 when it appears in different words?
[correction]

I asked around at my school yesterday about the kanji and we found out that 溌 was created in 1983 with JIS revisions. I still have not found a printed dictionary that has the simplified kanji. Although all my dictionaries are used ones from the 80s.

I bet I could write them if you gave the Heisig keywords instead of Japanese words :p

Womacks23 Wrote:I still have not found a printed dictionary that has the simplified kanji.

This could be causing the discrepancy between your printed 広辞苑 and my digital one. Mine's the 6th version or something.