Hi everyone. I seek your advice on which of the two books to buy in order to get myself on the way to properly learning the basics of Japanese grammar. I am trying to choose between "Genki I" and "Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar". Each is costly enough that I can only buy one.

I am a beginner, but I tend to learn and pick up things quickly. I'm using RTK1 and learning kana at the same time. I've already learned hiragana and will be learning katakana soon (I should have no problem learning that in a couple of days). So my next goal is to get started on the basics of Japanese grammar and familiarize myself with sentence construction and Japanese words in parallel with learning RTK1.

I have browsed through Genki I and I think it's a good book. I have not had a chance to browse through UBJG, but I've read good things about it. I would be interested to know your opinions on which of these two books I should get. I also have "Japanese the Manga Way" on the way (I don't have it yet), but I figure another book wouldn't hurt.

BTW, I am enjoying learning Japanese a lot.

I went through Genki as my introduction to anything Japanese. I really enjoyed it. It's a textbook geared towards students in a classroom setting, but I think it can easily be used for someone to self-study as well. It's structured so you follow things as it goes along, and they don't throw a bunch of weird vocab and grammar at you that they haven't introduced. I think it's a good thing, but others might think that it babies you too much.

[edit]I first replied because I thought you were asking about "Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" = DBJG, and not "Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar" (?) = UBJG. I know nothing about UBJG, but I can tell you that I enjoyed Genki when I did it.

Asriel, thank you for the feedback on Genki I. It's good to have that kind of first-hand info.

Japanese the Manga Way. Oh I see it's already on its way. Then.... Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar! Esp. since there's already a sentence deck for it.

Yes, Manga Way is on the way, and I'm looking forward to it, it looks like a fun book. I'll check out DBJG too. I've read plenty of good things about it.

I should probably tell you that my original post was saying that if you had to choose between Genki I and DBJG, I would definitely suggest Genki.

DBJG is just that -- a dictionary for grammar. The whole series is really good, and I use it all the time...But I wouldn't suggest it being your guide into Japanese. There's no "structure" to learn through it. The words that come up will vary in difficulty, and it's just not designed as a textbook.
That being said, it's one of my favorite series.

I hated Genki in my Japanese class. You know they're not serious when they use romaji for the first 3 or 4 chapters. Everything is so cookie-cutter and inconsistent. I never felt like the book actually attempted to teach me any kanji, and yet suddenly some of the exercises (in the back, not in the chapter itself) correlated with that chapter, such as reading a short story, have kanji and no furigana.

I would say get A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar. I just got mine last week and feel much more confident about learning grammar than I ever have. Sorry for my first paragraph, I don't want to sound rude, I'm just disappointed with what I learned from the Genki series. It also may be combined with my bad memories of Japanese class where nobody took the language seriously and wanted a free "A" because the teacher is too nice. I love the teacher, but she is simply too nice.

I do have Genki I and the workbook, so we could figure out a deal if you really want it for cheap. I have a bit of writing in each (most of the workbook we didn't use though, so it's relatively clear) but if you don't mind, neither do I.

Edit: Asriel is right of course in that you need a book to learn structure, which the grammar book I recommend won't quite provide. In that case Genki is still a good choice, hmm... not sure. I've been learning on-and-off since May 2009 and can barely do anything. I'm such a failure, which is why I'm changing that from now on!

As for structure, one reason I often recommend JMW and DOJG together is because, according to the back of JMW, DOJG is one of the main sources for what JMW discusses. So you can think of JMW as a kind of GUI for DOJG for beginners, I think. I think they also use some of Naoki Chino's stuff?

Genki! Because it has tons of exercises.
I used it for self study. I love all Japan Times textbooks.

You might be overwhelmed at first though, I mean, if you did not study RTK. I tried to learn all the kanji there but soon forgot them and was always frustrated.

hey, I looked into UBJG a while back, but never got it myself. It is basically lots and lots of sentences for various different grammar points. It's minimal on explanations, and doesn't have any exercises. Sorry I don't know anything more.

If Japanese the Manga Way is pretty reference-ish (like I seem to remember) I'd say go for the textbook because it has a variety of examples, usages and exercises for the grammar.

caivano Wrote:If Japanese the Manga Way is pretty reference-ish (like I seem to remember) I'd say go for the textbook because it has a variety of examples, usages and exercises for the grammar.

JMW isn't reference-ish at all... wait, what does reference-ish mean? If you mean whether it has exercises, it doesn't have those. I don't really understand the purpose of those, anyway. It's just a really well-written and designed guide using manga examples. I'd recommend it 10 times out of 10 over any other book, as they all suck in comparison. ;pp

nest0r Wrote:JMW isn't reference-ish at all... wait, what does reference-ish mean? If you mean whether it has exercises, it doesn't have those. I don't really understand the purpose of those, anyway. It's just a really well-written and designed guide using manga examples. I'd recommend it 10 times out of 10 over any other book, as they all suck in comparison. ;pp

I know...

by reference-ish I mean that's how I'd use it if I owned it, as a reference. I got it from the library when I was at that level but it wasn't a book I wanted to read through from start to finish as there wasn't enough stuff for each point. By stuff I mean exercises (reading, writing, listening and speaking) - this is what Minna no Nihongo (textbook) had. Exercises help me remember and become quicker at using / producing the grammar, just reading a guide doesn't.

Depends on how you like to learn..

I read JMW front to back, and really enjoyed it, learning a lot as I studied the items in Anki. I think the concept of textbook exercises is outdated, with the advent of SRSing multimedia words and sentences. I feel the same about various software/apps, but at least those are better than exercises from books, methinks.

But I guess some people need those fusty old constraints in order to actively study.

I don't want to spend all day in front of my computer - I do enough on anki already (vocab + sentence recognition). Plus lang-8 and various other things.

Also I don't think doing production (speaking / writing?) with anki is very good anyway. I'm guessing you didn't really do any production with JMW... that's why I like textbooks, you do all skills for all the main grammar points. Which you then supplement with all the amazing new age resources.

Thank you all for the input and discussion. It is good to have choices. I think I will reserve DBJG for later on in my learning process and budget. It sounds like an excellent reference to have. UBJG does not sound suitable for me as a beginner, so I might still get Genki. With that and Manga Way I might be able to learn something of Japanese grammar.

BTW, @TheVinster, thanks for the offer of the books, but your post reminded me that I should be hitting my favorite used books stores around here. I usually have luck finding books I want there for cheap. For example, I got my Heisig (3rd) edition there at a good price. I'm crossing my fingers that I'll find the other Japanese books I'm looking for there.

I'll throw in yet another vote for _Japanese the Manga Way_, as well as _A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar_ (and it's more advanced versions) after you finish your initial reading of JtMW.

I also recommend the use of an SRS (using examples in the book or subs2srs'ing a show) instead of "standard" book exorcizes. I can't fathom having an issue with being in front of a computer for too long, so I can't suggest any solution to that (do you hate electricity?).

I can't speak on the JMW or Ganki, but I've been going through UBJG and love it so far because its lite on explanations. The entire book is an exercise , provided you read aloud the sentences. You'll get a feel for the grammar usage while picking up some kanji as well (furigana is used throughout the book). The authors explanation of his method and how it works isn't too different from how Heisig describes his own.

EDIT: Ah, you can only afford one book. If you have luck with used bookstores, try to find Japanese for Everyone. It's just as good as Genki, only it's a lot cheaper, and covers as much material as 2 books of Genki in one book. You can find the audio for it online if you know where to look. *cough*

The downside of JFE is that it's a bit dated, but it does an excellent job of covering a ton of material cheaply. Since it has ugly fonts, it should do a better job of teaching you.

Otherwise I'd vote for Japanese the Manga Way, simply because it brings up a lot of stuff I never found in dictionaries. But that said, you need to have a book with exercises to supplement it-- that's the one downside of JMW. Also, JMW doesn't really hold your hand the way a textbook will. I'd say it's a good book to have as a supplement to a textbook, though. You can learn a lot from it.

Genki is pretty good at holding your hand through the basics... even if it is annoying and somewhat overpriced. Get the answer book, and you can use it to create Cloze deletion cards (fill in the blank) of some of the exercises in Anki. Especially handy with verbs.

The main problem with Genki is that it's not just one book, it's a whole system, and you wind up buying a lot of extras that cost a fortune.

As for "fusty old textbooks," I prefer active engagement with my books. As in, I like to write all over them. So I have a bias towards those kinds of books.

Needless to say, I don't sell them very often.

overture2112 Wrote:I can't fathom having an issue with being in front of a computer for too long

Personally I find it tends to result in pain in the hand, wrist, shoulder and neck... In fact, one of the original reasons I started learning Japanese was that I wanted something interesting to do that didn't involve sitting in front of a computer.

I had both. I still have UBJG. I remember someone asked me for it on this board and I was supposed to mail it to them for free but I forgot.

UBJG has more raw content in it. More sentences, more examples, more grammar uses. Grammar wise, Genki 1 will probably cover a quarter of UBJG. UBJG does have drills in it, but they are not as frequent as Genki 1.

Genki 1 has more explanations and practicable situations, but less stuff. Genki 1 is also a more well rounded book, covering vocabulary, grammar, listening and kanji, and manages to somehow link it to a story. So yes, there's more context--maybe not the most natural context, but still some context.

TL;DR version: Genki 1, less stuff but more detailed, lots of hand holding. UBJG, more stuff but less detailed. Choose appropriately depending on your skill level.

Me personally, I learned grammar by completing Genki 1 as part of a class, then with some strange combination of UBJG, DJG, Tae Kim, KO2001 sentences, and curiosity when reading on the internet.

Quote:but I figure another book wouldn't hurt.

Actually, unless the book is a reference book (like DJG series) then it will backfire. If you use two things that have a lot of overlap, you end up reviewing a lot of the same stuff. I've been there before. =) Less is more, right?

Hi everyone. Thanks again for your feedback on different books. Thanks to them, I've more of a sense now of how the different books work. I did receive my copy of "Japanese the Manga Way", and I think it's a good book for an absolute beginner like me. My only minor complaint about it is the form factor---I would have preferred a smaller size. And I could probably use more verbs up front. But, hey, it's got plenty of cartoons! I think this book will tide me over for a while, but I can imagine I might want something like DBJG or UBJG in the near future. In any case, I ended up spending the rest of my money on some manga. I've never read manga before, but I've read that it can help me in my learning process. *cough*

Speaking of manga, I had to buy real copies because all those that I found online for free have been translated to English. Well that's no help. Are there sites where I can read manga in the original Japanese? I imagine not because of copyright issues.

tokyostyle Wrote:Cats noises in Japanese + a popular peer-to-peer protocol.

If you can sort that out as two words to put into google ... You should be able to figure the rest out from there.

Yay, another riddle! I'm still recovering from "sega pup toad".

I'm around chapter 20/21 (out of 23) of Genki with my teacher, and I admit I'm looking forward to moving on to something else. I like Genki for its explanations, insights, and exercises, but not at all for its kanji and vocab lists, which seem driven by pretty arbitrary chapter themes/stories and convenience rather than any planned structure. The vocab lists feel random, and for me, an adult student, that makes the vocab harder to retain. For example, in chapter 20 you learn "space alien" and "branch office", and in 21 you learn "sex offender", but only in 22 do you learn "wind" and "tree". In 23, the final chapter, you learn "socks", "place", and "dinner". Same story with kanji; although 時, 内, and 心 all are grade 2 kanji, Genki gives you toki in ch. 3 but kokoro in 20 and nai in 22. Hard to believe anyone gets through 20 chapters of Japanese study without picking up 心 or 内...or mentioning places or dinner! I'd rather see vocab organized situationally—kitchen/house words, airport words, food words, whatever—and kanji by similarity of radicals, readings, or meaning. Or something.

I don't mean to harsh on Genki, but after getting through most of its content with my teacher, a native speaker, one on one, I still feel like a zero on vocab and kanji. Every day, in reading other things, I come across basics, like conjunctions, that I've never seen in Genki.

I don't know JfE. I do like Manga Way, but I never actually pick it up. You might also try Rita Lampkin's book (Japanese Verbs and Essentials of Grammar) for a well-organized grammar reference and Jay Rubin's book (Making Sense of Japanese) for solid insights into problems of the language for English-speaking learners. Truth be told, the book I use most, by far, is Henshall.